Request to Review (up until 73)

[Ian Butler]

Today marks my "comeback" after about 2 weeks without (online) games. So I had to get back into it with a nice OGS game.
I think I played okay until a fatal reading error around move 73, after which the game was lost and I tried to make some things work, but to no avail.

I'd be happy to get some thoughts on my play up until that reading error (yes, not seeing a snapback, terrible, I know). In the file, I give alternative plays for each of my moves, sometimes with a variation. It looks like (if someone could confirm, it'd be great) there was something there at the counter-hane at move 25. All my variations give a good result for black, but probably I am missing some variations.

Overall, a decent comeback game until 73. Maybe I played too quickly still. Very tough for me to play calmly online.
Thank you!

[Mike Novack]

........ Maybe I played too quickly still. Very tough for me to play calmly online.

At least in on-line play this is a bad habit you can use tools to break.

Get a timer. Set it to something reasonable for the time control being used for the game. Perhaps 1/2 the average time per move. Do not make your move till the timer has "dinged". See if that doesn't help you spend more time thnking.

[afar]

It looks like (if someone could confirm, it'd be great) there was something there at the counter-hane at move 25. All my variations give a good result for black, but probably I am missing some variations.

Your main counter-hane variation line at M15 would be quite poor for black. When white ataris at O16 then black is cut apart, the stone at P17 is damaged, and white becomes strong (whereas was potentially weak before).

Have you tried using Leela Zero to review your games (e.g. with Lizzie)? It can be hard to understand many of its suggestions, but one thing it might help with is highlighting blind spots where you (or both players) ignore an area for much longer than you should. An example is move O17 in the game, which was big for both players for a long time.

[Bill Spight]

Some comments on the opening.


You have a good sense of direction, but now you have met a player who beat you in the opening. Well worth some study. What does Leela Zero or Elf say?

[Bill Spight]

Very tough for me to play calmly online.

You might set maintaining relaxation as a goal for a while, without worrying about how well you play.

[Ian Butler]

@Mike
Interesting advice. Main trouble I have online, though, is that I don't find many opponents interested in longer games. I use the time I get well, but I'd love a game of 1h each + byo-yomi. Problem is it's hard enough finding people for 20 mins + byo.
Playing on a real goban helps not to play too quickly, but even still, I play way slower face to face. But I think that's natural.

@afar
I use Leela 11 to review my games and, yes, she shows me the blind spots. Though it's always interesting to watch her analysis, I have the feeling I'm not the kind of person who learns a lot from reviewing with a strong bot. I learn way better if a stronger player points out something from my game and explains why it's so. I remember it way better then.

@Bill
As always, very helpful variations & commentary on the game. I didn't realize enclosing your corner is slow, or is that only when it's facing an opponent's stone?

Very interesting take on the C17 - C11 exchange. I never thought about it that way!

In the variation from the splitting stone on top, you say black has nothing to fear with the 3-3 in place from the slide. What would a good follow-up move be from black to white 22 at F18?

Relaxation as a goal is definitely something I'm working towards. Already I play much calmer than I used to, so I'm learning. But I still play a lot better face to face and I have the feeling I always will. But online play is almost a must if you want to improve, so I want to keep working on that!

[Joaz Banbeck]

I would have played 23 like this:

$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . X . O . . O . X . . . . |
$$ | . O . X . X . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . C . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . C . . . . . . . B . . X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . O . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . X . O . . O . X . . . . |
$$ | . O . X . X . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . C . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . C . . . . . . . B . . X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . O . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

It builds black's right side while diminishing white's lower side. It is the biggest move on the board, IMHO.
Now, moves like F6 and O15 are miai.

[Bill Spight]

@Bill
As always, very helpful variations & commentary on the game. I didn't realize enclosing your corner is slow, or is that only when it's facing an opponent's stone?

Neither did anybody 50 years ago. You can try the Chinese or micro-Chinese. The bots seem to be telling us that the keima enclosure is usually slow, and the ogeima or two space high enclosure is usually better.

In the variation from the splitting stone on top, you say black has nothing to fear with the 3-3 in place from the slide. What would a good follow-up move be from black to white 22 at F18?

How about G-17? White will not be thrilled to crawl on the second line.

Relaxation as a goal is definitely something I'm working towards. Already I play much calmer than I used to, so I'm learning. But I still play a lot better face to face and I have the feeling I always will. But online play is almost a must if you want to improve, so I want to keep working on that!

You might try something like this. Get into a relaxed state, for instance by imagining yourself by the sea or a slow flowing river. Then when its your turn to play, look at the go board and wonder where you are going to play. Hopefully you will find out in time!

[EdLee]

Hi Ian,

Problem is it's hard enough finding people for 20 mins + byo.

Yes, but it's doable. I play even slower games, so sometimes I have to wait a long time to find someone online.
But I still manage (on IGS; on KGS it's increasingly hopeless now ).

I didn't realize enclosing your corner is slow

It's not that slow, even for super human bots. Depends on the board, of course.

Relaxation as a goal is definitely something I'm working towards.

Very interesting; one of our local members also has online stress -- I wonder what percentage of the population shares this trait, and why.

For a calm mind, perhaps some non-Go areas may help. ( Physical exercises; meditation, rock climbing , etc. )

[dfan]

Relaxation as a goal is definitely something I'm working towards.

Very interesting; one of our local members also has online stress -- I wonder what percentage of the population shares this trait, and why.

For some reason go players seem to have more online stress than chess players (and I have more online stress when I play go than when I play chess!). I don't know why this is. Especially on reddit there are frequent threads asking how to have less fear of playing online. I don't really know how to explain it. It might partially be because the games tend to take more time so there is more pressure to justify the time you spent.

[EdLee]

Hi Dan,

Yes, it's a mystery. I wonder how many doctoral dissertations were on it, and other research...