Second-to-last AYD game today:
First win since February 19th.
My opponent is a guy that I know from the Seattle Go Center. I've never lost against him in an even game. My guess is that the psychological effect of having not lost to him before overcame the psychological effect of being on a losing streak.
Not sure. Can't say I played well either, but I guess it's nicer to win than to lose.
Kirby's Study Journal
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Kirby
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Kirby
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Re: Kirby's Study Journal
Last game of the AYD. Going to take a break for awhile now.
I played against the forum's very own Calvin Clark. He resigned, but it's not clear to me that I was ahead at the end of the game. A big mistake in this game was obviously not reading well enough to see that he could kill me on top, and then playing tenuki.
Oh well.
I'm going to practice programming for awhile, and see if I can get better at that. Later, I might come back to go.
I'll resume this journal at that time.
I played against the forum's very own Calvin Clark. He resigned, but it's not clear to me that I was ahead at the end of the game. A big mistake in this game was obviously not reading well enough to see that he could kill me on top, and then playing tenuki.
Oh well.
I'm going to practice programming for awhile, and see if I can get better at that. Later, I might come back to go.
I'll resume this journal at that time.
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Kirby
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Re: Kirby's Study Journal
Getting back on the horse...
I just started playing go again this week. I first went to KGS to play a game, but since I don't have a rank there anymore, it was taking too long to get a game. So I used OGS instead. I don't have an established account there, yet, so I played against an OGS 4k.
Here is the game record:
I just started playing go again this week. I first went to KGS to play a game, but since I don't have a rank there anymore, it was taking too long to get a game. So I used OGS instead. I don't have an established account there, yet, so I played against an OGS 4k.
Here is the game record:
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Kirby
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Re: Kirby's Study Journal
The first big mistake that I can see from my own feeling was this move:
I played kind of out of instinct, and then suddenly, my corner was in trouble.
I should have played here, I think: EDIT: Seems like I also forgot how to post diagrams, it's been so long :-p
I played kind of out of instinct, and then suddenly, my corner was in trouble.
I should have played here, I think: EDIT: Seems like I also forgot how to post diagrams, it's been so long :-p
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Kirby
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Re: Kirby's Study Journal
Move 57 is also questionable. Maybe a squeeze is better:
So: I think my reservation was maybe letting white have too much on the top.
So: I think my reservation was maybe letting white have too much on the top.
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Kirby
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Re: Kirby's Study Journal
I want to do more review, but my wife wants to eat breakfast. So I'll be back later to do more analysis.
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Uberdude
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Re: Kirby's Study Journal
Kirby, you are missing the more important lesson here: rather than attach for move 41 you should simply play 3-3 for a comfortable life. White is already strong on the top side with h17 and l17 so keeping f17 alive is not important (it has no potential to attack h17). White's top side does have o14 so isn't quite as flat and rubbish as a 3rd line formation usually is (so a later shoulder hit reduction may be overplay and something more cautious warranted), but it's nothing to be jealous of. I know you don't like AI, but Lizzie would have told you this (though without my wordy explanation) 
.
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Kirby
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Re: Kirby's Study Journal
Thanks, Uberdude. I did consider the 3-3, but I was jealous of the top that white would get. I appreciate your explanation.
Regarding AI, I actually have LeelaZero setup on my computer, but I haven't had time to do an analysis. I have no problems with using LeelaZero to get ideas. However, I'm reluctant to use Leela's top choice move unless I understand it. It may even be a better move, but I need to understand it better to play it.
Kind of like your suggestion of 3-3. I'm going to try to think about why I shouldn't be jealous of the top side. I'm probably being greedy, but my instinct is greedy right now, I guess.
Regarding AI, I actually have LeelaZero setup on my computer, but I haven't had time to do an analysis. I have no problems with using LeelaZero to get ideas. However, I'm reluctant to use Leela's top choice move unless I understand it. It may even be a better move, but I need to understand it better to play it.
Kind of like your suggestion of 3-3. I'm going to try to think about why I shouldn't be jealous of the top side. I'm probably being greedy, but my instinct is greedy right now, I guess.
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Bill Spight
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Re: Kirby's Study Journal
Sometimes you have to jump into the river to learn how to swim.Kirby wrote: Regarding AI, I actually have LeelaZero setup on my computer, but I haven't had time to do an analysis. I have no problems with using LeelaZero to get ideas. However, I'm reluctant to use Leela's top choice move unless I understand it. It may even be a better move, but I need to understand it better to play it.
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
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Uberdude
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Re: Kirby's Study Journal
So let's have a look at the likely result if you 3-3 (I had white play the classic connection at e17, the bot fashion is a instead). White ends with sente (perhaps approach at b next).
With your attach and hane if white insists on making the top side with e18 as in the game (it might be better to keep the corner and force black to make a cramped life on top side) then maybe it should go like this. Not sure if 4 for 5 is good exchange, and 6 is a soft choice. Now should white spend a move (e.g. a) or tenuki in which case black can activate the cutting stones? Or maybe black does this. Now black has the choice to tenuki (e.g. lower right shimari) which allows white to get the big turn at a, which isn't sente due to pushing 4 times, but does get the nice extend in corner to get b13 sente hane next. Or black could push again. White's top side is considerably better here than with the 3-3, though it did cost gote (but also black hasn't poked his head out on left side yet). So with the attachment you could actually end up giving white a bigger top side than with 3-3.
With your attach and hane if white insists on making the top side with e18 as in the game (it might be better to keep the corner and force black to make a cramped life on top side) then maybe it should go like this. Not sure if 4 for 5 is good exchange, and 6 is a soft choice. Now should white spend a move (e.g. a) or tenuki in which case black can activate the cutting stones? Or maybe black does this. Now black has the choice to tenuki (e.g. lower right shimari) which allows white to get the big turn at a, which isn't sente due to pushing 4 times, but does get the nice extend in corner to get b13 sente hane next. Or black could push again. White's top side is considerably better here than with the 3-3, though it did cost gote (but also black hasn't poked his head out on left side yet). So with the attachment you could actually end up giving white a bigger top side than with 3-3.
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Kirby
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Re: Kirby's Study Journal
Look, I'm not saying that I won't consider a move AI recommends. I'm saying I won't play it only for that reason. I find that reasonable. I have to have an identity with my go.Bill Spight wrote:Sometimes you have to jump into the river to learn how to swim.Kirby wrote: Regarding AI, I actually have LeelaZero setup on my computer, but I haven't had time to do an analysis. I have no problems with using LeelaZero to get ideas. However, I'm reluctant to use Leela's top choice move unless I understand it. It may even be a better move, but I need to understand it better to play it.
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Re: Kirby's Study Journal
@Uberdude:
I'd be reluctant to push that many time with black as in the last diagram. It gives white great potential.
That being said, you have a point that white can emphasize the top with my attachment, so it makes sense to me that, while I was jealous of the top, my attachment didn't help this concern.
I'd be reluctant to push that many time with black as in the last diagram. It gives white great potential.
That being said, you have a point that white can emphasize the top with my attachment, so it makes sense to me that, while I was jealous of the top, my attachment didn't help this concern.
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Uberdude
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Re: Kirby's Study Journal
For all the talk of AI's recommending wacky moves that are hard to use (which is sometimes true), in this case the 3-3 after the pincer is a really boring/classic/normal human move, and one that stood out to me before reviewing it with LZ to confirm it agreed it was better. I'm sure a low dan teacher could have pointed this out 10 years ago, in fact it wouldn't surprise me if plenty of kyu players chose it instead of the attachment which is a more "advanced" move. I agree understanding the suggestions is a good idea (and should be well within Kirby's abilities in this case), but also with Bill that sometimes taking a more experimental and adventurous approach is beneficial for learning (but perhaps not in a tournament game you want to win). It depends on the person's learning style / attitude.
Edit:
So, what to learn from this? First of all nothing as deep as shoulder hit at j16. I might have drawn a moyo sector line from o14 to d12 and gone around the middle of this at j12, but LZ goes shallower than this. It's instead gone for the sector line from o14 to d4 and around the middle of that. Also as black is growing a moyo I can see that if you go deeper and white caps then whilst you might reduce white's moyo more white also reduces black's lower side potential more so you want to combine reduction with builder. So I play j12, LZ says wasn't a big mistake (only -1.5%) and indeed caps at j10, I one point jump to right, she follows and we end up with some mutual destruction.
What if white didn't turn? Here's another idea that LZ starts to prefer around 1k playouts (I'm on weak computer atm), a fancy probe in corner and then grow moyo at tengen. The "how to cope with my fear of white surrounding big territory" lesson. Push on left once, then reduce at n13 (definitely don't hane at o13). Ok don't need to be jealous.
Edit:
I share the same unease, but also sente is nice and you are ahead after the top right (LZ says over 80% after this pushing). How to reduce big walls like this (or ensure they don't get too much) is something that bots are indeed very good at which is harder for humans to emulate, but I find it valuable to see how LZ continues against white playing what I fear so I can learn how deep a reduction is necessary. So with this example, LZ indeed likes shimari and turn, and then for black wants to reduce white / grow black at the 4 points around and south west of tengen:Kirby wrote:@Uberdude:
I'd be reluctant to push that many time with black as in the last diagram. It gives white great potential.
- Kirby LZ.PNG (950.24 KiB) Viewed 12250 times
What if white didn't turn? Here's another idea that LZ starts to prefer around 1k playouts (I'm on weak computer atm), a fancy probe in corner and then grow moyo at tengen. The "how to cope with my fear of white surrounding big territory" lesson. Push on left once, then reduce at n13 (definitely don't hane at o13). Ok don't need to be jealous.
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Uberdude
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Re: Kirby's Study Journal
P.S. LZ also points out massive tactical mistakes: for move 59 you can play c15 to capture white as he doesn't have the ladder (LZ needs a few hundred playouts to realise this). That's a 35% mistake, much more than these 3-3 vs attach subtleties!
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Kirby
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Re: Kirby's Study Journal
Haha, good point!Uberdude wrote:P.S. LZ also points out massive tactical mistakes: for move 59 you can play c15 to capture white as he doesn't have the ladder (LZ needs a few hundred playouts to realise this). That's a 35% mistake, much more than these 3-3 vs attach subtleties!
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