The questions are inside the sgf file. Thanks for your comments in advance. I was white this game.
The link is at http://eidogo.com/#pMDVeJb5.
5 kyu Wbaduk Fighting Play Questions
-
Uberdude
- Judan
- Posts: 6727
- Joined: Thu Nov 24, 2011 11:35 am
- Rank: UK 4 dan
- GD Posts: 0
- KGS: Uberdude 4d
- OGS: Uberdude 7d
- Location: Cambridge, UK
- Has thanked: 436 times
- Been thanked: 3718 times
Re: 5 kyu Wbaduk Fighting Play Questions
Quote my post to see how to use sgf tags (it needs either a url to download link of sgf, which for eidogo is http://eidogo.com/sgf/<id without leading #>.sgf, or the sgf content itself).
-
BlindGroup
- Lives in gote
- Posts: 388
- Joined: Mon Nov 14, 2016 5:27 pm
- GD Posts: 0
- IGS: 4k
- Universal go server handle: BlindGroup
- Has thanked: 295 times
- Been thanked: 64 times
Re: 5 kyu Wbaduk Fighting Play Questions
One thing that really jumps out at me in this game is that I think you understand that it is good to keep your opponent's groups weak and separated. That's a good thing to understand. However, I feel like you are over-estimating the strength of your own groups at times. These two moves felt uncomfortable to me:
Move 26: My instinct would have been to play something like A because it reinforces the white stones in the middle left and it starts to limit the options of the black stone. Black has two weak groups, but I think you should also realize that your group in between is also not strong either.
Move 28: I'm not sure that the corner is strong enough to make this pincer work. If the corner were strong, then this move would separate blacks approach stone from the stones on the right. However, if you see the corner as weak, the black stone is now splitting two weak white groups. I'd have played something to reinforce the corner like A. This forces black to extend to the left to prevent the pincer, and then you get sente. A lot of complications that developed in this area would have been eliminated if the corner were secure.
Unfortunately, I wasn't entirely sure what to suggest for the rest of the game. It gets complicated quickly with so may weak groups, and I fear that your group in the lower left corner isn't settled even after
, but my skills are not strong enough to know for sure.
Move 26: My instinct would have been to play something like A because it reinforces the white stones in the middle left and it starts to limit the options of the black stone. Black has two weak groups, but I think you should also realize that your group in between is also not strong either.
Move 28: I'm not sure that the corner is strong enough to make this pincer work. If the corner were strong, then this move would separate blacks approach stone from the stones on the right. However, if you see the corner as weak, the black stone is now splitting two weak white groups. I'd have played something to reinforce the corner like A. This forces black to extend to the left to prevent the pincer, and then you get sente. A lot of complications that developed in this area would have been eliminated if the corner were secure.
Unfortunately, I wasn't entirely sure what to suggest for the rest of the game. It gets complicated quickly with so may weak groups, and I fear that your group in the lower left corner isn't settled even after
, but my skills are not strong enough to know for sure.-
Joaz Banbeck
- Judan
- Posts: 5546
- Joined: Sun Dec 06, 2009 11:30 am
- Rank: 1D AGA
- GD Posts: 1512
- Kaya handle: Test
- Location: Banbeck Vale
- Has thanked: 1080 times
- Been thanked: 1434 times
Re: 5 kyu Wbaduk Fighting Play Questions
I like eksert's choice here. A move at 'a' looks small, and has iffy shape.BlindGroup wrote:... play something like A because it reinforces the white stones in the middle left and it starts to limit the options of the black stone. Black has two weak groups, but I think you should also realize that your group in between is also not strong either.
...
Sure, white's two stones on the side are not really strong, but they are stronger than the local black stones. The shoulder hit helps keep one of those stones weak.
If you really want to indulge in the goals behind 'a', this will do it better:
Help make L19 more organized. Make an index: https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5207
-
Gomoto
- Gosei
- Posts: 1733
- Joined: Sun Nov 06, 2016 6:56 am
- GD Posts: 0
- Location: Earth
- Has thanked: 621 times
- Been thanked: 310 times
Re: 5 kyu Wbaduk Fighting Play Questions
I prefer this double 4-4 fuseki for white:
If you play the 3-4 fuseki you have to add a stone add a or b in this fuseki, to enter the right side and approach 4-4 is a mistake:
(If you would have played the double 4-4 fuseki you could consider approaching the upper right from the OUTSIDE or enter 3-3 directly (which would have been my preference))
This kind of passive play in the middle of the side is not a good move in the fuseki most of the times. It is a mistake in this position. Much better is a play at a,b or c.
This move is fine:
a and b (if you insist on a local play) are good options for white:
If you play the 3-4 fuseki you have to add a stone add a or b in this fuseki, to enter the right side and approach 4-4 is a mistake:
(If you would have played the double 4-4 fuseki you could consider approaching the upper right from the OUTSIDE or enter 3-3 directly (which would have been my preference))
This kind of passive play in the middle of the side is not a good move in the fuseki most of the times. It is a mistake in this position. Much better is a play at a,b or c.
This move is fine:
a and b (if you insist on a local play) are good options for white:
-
EdLee
- Honinbo
- Posts: 8859
- Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 6:49 pm
- GD Posts: 312
- Location: Santa Barbara, CA
- Has thanked: 349 times
- Been thanked: 2070 times
moves:
-
Gomoto
- Gosei
- Posts: 1733
- Joined: Sun Nov 06, 2016 6:56 am
- GD Posts: 0
- Location: Earth
- Has thanked: 621 times
- Been thanked: 310 times
Re: 5 kyu Wbaduk Fighting Play Questions
B15 by black is a mistake, the white answer 86 (turn around in the middle 85)
turn arround in the middle 92
attachment 85
(ELF)
turn arround in the middle 92
attachment 85
(ELF)
-
EdLee
- Honinbo
- Posts: 8859
- Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 6:49 pm
- GD Posts: 312
- Location: Santa Barbara, CA
- Has thanked: 349 times
- Been thanked: 2070 times
-
Bill Spight
- Honinbo
- Posts: 10905
- Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2010 1:24 pm
- Has thanked: 3651 times
- Been thanked: 3373 times
Re:
Without many playouts, you can't count on Leela's third choice, or maybe even the second choice.EdLee wrote:Hi Gomoto,
Thanks.
( I assume 'good' means it's either LZ's top choice or one of its top 3 choices for the given board.)
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
-
EdLee
- Honinbo
- Posts: 8859
- Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 6:49 pm
- GD Posts: 312
- Location: Santa Barbara, CA
- Has thanked: 349 times
- Been thanked: 2070 times
-
eksert
- Beginner
- Posts: 7
- Joined: Sun May 24, 2015 1:32 pm
- Rank: KGS 11kyu
- GD Posts: 0
- KGS: 11k
- IGS: 11k
- Has thanked: 3 times
Re: Re:
How many playouts 1k is enough generally? I analyze my games with LZ and after 1k generally moves do not change.. Only win percentages change 0.5%-1%.Bill Spight wrote:Without many playouts, you can't count on Leela's third choice, or maybe even the second choice.EdLee wrote:Hi Gomoto,
Thanks.
( I assume 'good' means it's either LZ's top choice or one of its top 3 choices for the given board.
-
EdLee
- Honinbo
- Posts: 8859
- Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 6:49 pm
- GD Posts: 312
- Location: Santa Barbara, CA
- Has thanked: 349 times
- Been thanked: 2070 times
-
dfan
- Gosei
- Posts: 1598
- Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2010 8:49 am
- Rank: AGA 2k Fox 3d
- GD Posts: 61
- KGS: dfan
- Has thanked: 891 times
- Been thanked: 534 times
- Contact:
Re: Re:
LZ with 1k playouts is certainly quite strong, but it is incorrect to believe that the moves don't change with more visits. People have done many experiments, and LZ with more playouts beats LZ with fewer playouts consistently. My recollection is that it's a logarithmic sort of relation, meaning that doubling the amount of time searching adds a fixed amount of strength, so you do get diminishing returns after a while (going from 1k to 2k playouts adds about the same amount of strength as going from 100k to 200k).eksert wrote:How many playouts 1k is enough generally? I analyze my games with LZ and after 1k generally moves do not change.. Only win percentages change 0.5%-1%.