Review: The Endgame (Ogawa / Davies)

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Re: Review: The Endgame (Ogawa / Davies)

Post by explo »

asura wrote:I have read this book at least five times and I think it is a good book. Everyone, who has not studied endgame so far, will surely profit from reading this book. This is a go-book and no math-book (like the book Robert Jasiek just wrote), but it teachs all the math you need to evaluate the positions.
It strikes a good balance betwwen practice and theory. I think you can easy improve yor endgame by 10 points whith this book.
Anyone who hasn't paid attention to endgame will surely profit from reading any endgame book. I own this book, as well as get Strong at the endgame and Yose (French book by Motoki Noguchi and Dai Junfu). I would recommend those two over The endgame. I haven't read any of Robert's books about the endgame so I can't compare.
It seems to me, that Robert Jasiek does not really understand the concept of deri-counting, but once you understand it, it will become clear that there are many situations when this way of counting is more easy then miai-counting. And of corse, you will get the same answer with both methods.
(You could compare deri-counting vs. miai-counting with probability calculation, where you could write the chance to roll a six with one dice is 1/6. You could also write 16.67%. Yet another way would be 1:5 (one six and five times no six), but the confusion could start when someone will treat ":" and "/" the same and write f.e. 1:6 instead of 1/6. When you understand these concepts you will realize, that depending on the question you have, in some calculations one way of representation will be more comfortable.)
Saying Robert doesn't understand the theory is a very bold statement. I'm tempted to buy his book but I'm much more worried about seeing too much theory and not enough practical advice.
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Re: Review: The Endgame (Ogawa / Davies)

Post by asura »

explo wrote: Saying Robert doesn't understand the theory is a very bold statement.
Nevertheless it's true when it comes to applying the deri-method. (I also said "it seems"... I have no idea if he doesn't understand it or if he just pretend so.) Else there wouldn't be such statements like
RobertJasiek wrote:Funnily, the book cannot quite admit to avoid negative numbers when writing "the total difference is 1+1=2 points". If White's points were accounted properly as negative points, we would indeed have the difference "1 - (-1) = 2".
In many situations, the deri-counting-method is just more comfortable to use than the miai-counting-method. As a mathematician I do not say one method is better than the other, but I say, it depends on the question you want to solve, so I would recommend to know (and use) both concepts, because then you can choose the most easy way in different situations.
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Re: Review: The Endgame (Ogawa / Davies)

Post by RobertJasiek »

asura, there is no doubt that somebody knowing close to nothing about the endgame profits from the book to some extent (as you say, surely 10 points). The problem is not that the book would be useless but that it wastes very much potential for improvement. When I first read it, I had known close to nothing about the endgame and the book improved my endgame by a couple of points, say 10+. However, some 10 points are almost nothing compared to the huge amounts I must have lost during the endgame as circa 5 kyu.

I would not really understand traditional endgame theory (deiri counting)? There have been different stages of my understanding of it during the previous 28 years.

Stage 1 (1992, 5 to 3 kyu): I had mostly Ogawa's book as a source, calculated deiri move values of gote, sente and double sente without follow-ups reasonably but with many mistakes, made more mistakes with reverse sente, did not clearly understand that dead stones were worth 2 points because the book creates extra confusion for that (speaking of 3 prisoners when referring to 3 dead stones being worth 6 points), had great trouble calculating move values of local endgames with direct follow-ups and do not recall to have ever calculated local endgames with iterative follow-ups then. I was not aware of other aspects of endgame evaluation.

Stage 2 (1992 - 1997, 2 kyu - 4 dan): like stage 1 but I knew that dead stones are worth 2 points. I learned this as a consequence of rules study, when comparing the scoring systems.

Stage 3 (1998 - 2016, 5 dan): Additional endgame books (Get Strong at the Endgame, Japanese / Korean endgame problem books) and tesuji books improved my endgame tesujis but had almost no impact on my calculation of deiri move values. Bill Spight's online discussions about the endgame had the side effect that I calculated more local endgames with follow-ups and slowly learned iterative follow-ups. However, I mostly roughly guessed move values when iterative follow-ups were involved because a clear, easy description was missing everywhere. I became aware of the existence of modern endgame theory (miai counting) but neglected its study for a long time because discussion focussed on expert aspects (such as infinitesimals and temperature) for which I saw too little practical use in comparison to the learning effort. Most of the books on traditional endgame theory had lots of mistakes in their move value calculations and lazy rounding everywhere. So I still used traditional endgame theory only for move values but by 2016 I had finally understood the basics of modern endgame theory beyond the fragments of it appearing in my earlier books, when useful also for non-endgame theory. Methods like the Unsettled Group Average forced me to acquire a basic understanding.

Stage 4: (autumn 2016): I spent a few months of reading every online message and webpage I had collected over the years to identify everything relevant, organise it and raise my understanding of modern endgame theory to a level necessary for book teaching. A new wave of discussions with Bill started and I realised that his research touched huge gaps in endgame theory. To fill them, I joined research.

Stage 5 (late 2016 - 2018): I wrote Endgame 2 - Values while researching in the practically relevant aspects of modern endgame theory and constantly improving my understanding of it. As a byproduct, my understanding of traditional endgame theory applied those aspects of modern endgame theory applicable under both: especially the counts of positions and followers. My description of traditional endgame theory is short but more detailed than I have seen anywhere else because everywhere else often only deiri move values are explained. As a consequence of writing and researching, I can now calculate local endgames with follow-ups under both theories. I had bought Mathematical Go Endgames in 1994 but understood almost nothing until rereading it several times while writing the book. Surprise - it is related to modern endgame theory.

There is no such thing as endgame calculation without arithmetics. Ogawa' book uses mathematics, my book does and Mathematical Go Endgames does. All are go books, but I would only call the latter also a maths book. The books use mathematical annotation to different degrees of formalism and mathematical tools. Ogawa restricts it to 2+(1/2*5) = 5(-) while pretending successful hiding of negative numbers and fractions other than 1/2. My book also uses negative numbers, brackets, variables and unequations, that is, school mathematics. This does not make it a maths book but a book in which necessary calculations are being done and formulas represent the same calculations in general, except that we insert the actual values of an example. Mathematical Go Endgames uses mathematical annotation as it might appear in a mathematical research paper, such is a maths book. My planned Volume 6 will be a maths book with mathematical proofs but go players need not read it to understand the applied school maths in the earlier volumes.

There is only one noteworthy kind of evaluation when deiri counting is easier than miai counting: if gote move values are compared to gote move values and NOT compared to move values of other types. (You speak of many situations, but it is only this kind of situation and not the many situations of other kinds.) When sente move values are compared with each other only, or gote or sente counts are calculated, deiri and miai counting are equally easy. For every other purpose, miai counting is EASIER. For many purposes, deiri counting makes no sense at all, unless first we transform its move values to miai move values. E.g., it is easier for comparing gote to sente move values or evaluating kos. E.g., deiri counting makes no sense when evaluating the impact of a gote move expressed by its move value on the value ("count") of a position.

For applications where both methods are applicable, we get the same answers. For applications where deiri counting is inapplicable, we do not get an answer for deiri counting or get a wrong / meaningless answer.

In my games, I apply both methods. When deiri counting is more convenient (for only comparing gote with gote move values earlier than during the microendgame), I use it. When both are applicable equally conveniently, I use either. When only miai counting is applicable, faster or precision is needed, I use it.

Since both methods have their uses, my book explains both. Since only miai counting is consistent and naturally allows value relations and advanced uses, the book explains miai counting in much greater detail. This makes perfect sense because deiri counting falls apart for everything but the few most basic applications. One must not put too much faith in a method whose application is already so cumbersome for ordinary kos that the literature is full of bad explanations, mistakes or (as in the case of Ogawa's book) a failure to explain ko at all.
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Re: Review: The Endgame (Ogawa / Davies)

Post by RobertJasiek »

asura wrote: Else there wouldn't be such statements like
RobertJasiek wrote:Funnily, the book cannot quite admit to avoid negative numbers when writing "the total difference is 1+1=2 points". If White's points were accounted properly as negative points, we would indeed have the difference "1 - (-1) = 2".
Ogawa's book writes difference when it calculates the sum. The mistake is hers, not mine. I understand her thinking though because it is tempting to replace double negation by a plus sign (too) quickly.

If you study deiri counting carefully, you will encounter the positions with the necessity for expressing W points by negative numbers and comparing the B and W followers by forming the difference (value, swing, deiri value calculated as a difference). This then becomes the calculation that always works.

Only positive numbers and sum do not do it in general, although some authors pretend so. In particular, a settled black follower or a settled white follower can have changes of B and W territories, of which EITHER might be larger.
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Re: Review: The Endgame (Ogawa / Davies)

Post by RobertJasiek »

explo, "worried about seeing too much theory and not enough practical advice":

you might wait for Volume 4 and then worry about the converse:) Volume 2 is the theory book, Volume 4 will be the problem book and both together provide both. OTOH, you are in France and might find the chapter about area scoring useful if you attend French tournaments.
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Re: Review: The Endgame (Ogawa / Davies)

Post by Bill Spight »

asura wrote:In many situations, the deri-counting-method is just more comfortable to use than the miai-counting-method. As a mathematician I do not say one method is better than the other, but I say, it depends on the question you want to solve, so I would recommend to know (and use) both concepts, because then you can choose the most easy way in different situations.
As a mathematician, you may be unaware of how even good players who only know deiri counting misunderstand and abuse it. (Those who know both deiri and miai counting are less likely to do so.)

Here is a simple example. Suppose that such a player accurately counts the game and finds that White is 3.5 points behind. He also sees that there are only a few gote left on the board, the largest of which is worth 5 pts. (by deiri counting, which he thinks is the only kind). He erroneously thinks that White, who has the move, has a chance of winning (Edit: with correct play, OC).

Here is another example from real life. I don't remember the exact details, but a 5 dan who was also a computer scientist proposed something like this. Suppose that we have a 4 pt. sente with a simple threat worth 10 pts. (all by deiri counting). We multiply the sente value by 2 to get a value of 8 pts. Then we add the values together to get 18 pts. Then, since there are three plays involved, we calculate the gain for each play by dividing by 3, so the sente play gains 6 pts.

Then there are people who think that because you multiply the value of a sente play by 2, you should multiply the value of a double sente play by 4.

The problem is people who think that they understand deiri counting, who don't.

----

Edit: Over 20 years ago I went on a crusade to introduce miai counting to the West, since hardly anybody was aware of it, and there was much confusion because they thought that deiri counting meant something that it does not. After some time, I came to believe that I had not dispelled much confusion, but perhaps even introduced confusion, leaving people with two methods of evaluation, neither of which they understood. So now I avoid talking about the two methods, and simply talk about how much a play gains on average. People who just want to compare plays can use deiri counting, but those who want to know how much a play gains can figure that, as well. O Meien did the same kind of thing in Japan, calling his method Absolute Counting. (It's really miai counting. Good PR, I suppose. ;))
Last edited by Bill Spight on Tue Aug 28, 2018 11:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Review: The Endgame (Ogawa / Davies)

Post by Gomoto »

Robert's book started my interest for miai counting. I always were on the lookout to compare endgame moves more exactly. It explains modern endgame theory very detailed.

I think my first step is to memorize the miai counting shapes on sensei. Many moves I categorized already correct by intuition. But now I understand the miai values of the moves and have therefor a tool to get a finer grasp on the different size of endgame moves.

I am also now able to calculate the miai value for shapes that I have not memorized.

I am very thankful to Bill and Robert for their endgame studies.
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Re: Review: The Endgame (Ogawa / Davies)

Post by John Fairbairn »

For amateurs, and it would seem pros, boundary play theory as exemplified by Robert is massive overkill, and has more to do with mathematics than go.

The very fact that it is difficult to trace thinking about boundary plays in the Oriental literature tells us a lot about the proper priorities. We know that de-iri counting was known before 1844, because that was when Genan published what he claimed was the first book on counting boundary plays. He did not use the term de-iri, which may not have been used until the early 20th century, and he did not claim to have invented the concept (despite being brash enough to publicise himself) and he did not feel the need to explain the counting method. All this strongly suggests the method was already well known then, and since the endgame play of Edo players is regularly praised even today we may safely assume it already had a long history. That is, there had already been ample time for refinements to emerge.

But when we look at Genan's work (which I have long made available in the New In Go package that comes with the GoGoD database), we see the rather simplistic model that we are familiar with even today. Genan essentially uses three criteria to evaluate a boundary play: de-iri points, sente/gote, and (as an optional third element) incidentals such as aji, ko threats.

Nowhere does he speak of double sente or reverse sente, but he clearly understood at least some of the niceties of the term sente that Bill regularly refers to. For example, at one point he says a move is "worth about 9 points and can be regarded as sente" (my emphasis).

A few times he does occasionally mention half-point fractions, but feels no need to go into sixteenths and so on, and usually he is satisfied to say a play is worth "about" X points. This very simple model was clearly all that the Edo masters needed, and over the many years since then it has become apparent that it was sufficient for generations of later pros, who never (with a straight face) give obscure fractions in game commentaries - they will always say, like Genan, a move is worth "about" X points and, again like him, may occasionally mention half points.

But after Genan we had to wait 80 years before boundary plays were properly treated again in print. This is despite the minor explosion in go journalism in the late 19th century. Instead we had fusekis, josekis, tesujis - but no yose. Again, this almost certainly tells us something about what pros such as Honinbo Shuho thought about priorities.

In the late 1920s, the likes of Kato Shin and Kubomatsu Katsukiyo (who did not use ghost writers) started presenting series on boundary play counting in Kido. The articles were not as well structured as they would be nowadays by a professional go journalist, but essentially they were just presenting what Genan knew.

And by and large that has been the same situation ever since. Periodically, articles of the type Kato and Kubomatsu wrote have been recycled, and have occasionally made it into books. Sometimes you get a whole book on boundary plays, but when you examine it you see that it may be ten pages of "theory" and 230 pages of problems. The only real difference is that the more modern books are apparently written by amateurs. We can say this, not with complete certainty, admittedly, because we see characters and allusions in the text of a level that requires education at an elite university supposedly written by a pro who left school early to devote himself to go. And after the war, we see magazine articles about esoteric technical details of the endgame but these are always by amateurs. For example, Sakaguchi Junei (a very strong amateur) introduced the concept of miai counting to Kido readers in 1955. We also see amateurs' articles about fractional followers and corridors and the like. There had been a minor tradition of amateurs writing about the mathematics of go even before the war, but in the main these were related to the rules of go.

Robert has claimed pros have kept their secrets hidden - the bounders! I think rather that this simply confirms the picture of boundary plays as something that pros did not fuss about very much. They were apparently content with the simplistic model used by Genan and we can infer that they thought we amateurs should be content with it, too. After all, there is a strongly practical reason for thinking that way. Boundary plays tend to come at the end of the game, when time is short. Even pros find it hard to calculate multiple positions using fractions in one-minute byoyomi (and byoyomi can be much shorter!), so they rely on "tricks" such as "that obviously cancels this out so skip the calculation" and they accept the theoretical but highly remote possibility that they may lose a game because they don't quite know how to finesse the fractions. This is exactly how many chess players treat the endgame, too. Quite a lot of pros don't know how to play the K+B+N vs K endgame and so have, on rare occasions, ended up with an embarrassing draw instead of a win. But they have correctly reasoned that they may never see such an endgame in their entire lives.

In fact, in many endeavours, a characteristic of the pro is that they are eminently practical and a characteristic of the amateur is to fuss about trivial details.

Then O Meien came along. He introduced to Japan a new way of treating boundary plays called absolute counting. He said he was surprised Japanese players did not use this superior technique, but it was normal in China (I think he meant what we would call Taiwan). Apart from the novel method, his book was remarkable in that he clearly wrote it himself. Another important feature is that his method, once understood, is very easy to apply. In actual play O Meien does not fuss about sixteenths, corridors or other esoterica any more than his Japanese colleagues do. It's just that his method (or perhaps better: approach) cuts through the confusion caused by de-iri and miai counting (caused by overzealous amateurs?) and also overcomes the delusions that Bill mentions often, such as sente being worth something.

Now Robert says this about O Meien's book:
You only understand this good book if you read Japanese or already know all the theory explained in this book. It teaches the very basics of modern endgame theory for local endgames and the most basic global decisions. Endgame 2 - Values teaches more, more details and also the microendgame, scoring and school mathematics but avoids global decisions before the microendgame because they will be the topic of Volume 5. O Meien's book is well worth reading but non-essential if you read Endgame 2 - Values. On the other hand, modern endgame theory has been neglected in the other literature so reading both books can further improve one's understanding.
I have quite a few problems with this. Despite the implication, Robert does not read Japanese. I do read the Japanese, and actually have translated the book. I did this to practise my shorthand (getting very rusty in retirement) and as a way of forcing myself to think about the book. I normally just speed read go books.

So, if Robert cannot read the book, how does he know he already knows all the theory explained in it? His further comments suggest to me he doesn't. For example, the book does not teach much about the very basics of modern endgame theory, because the whole point of the book is to stand up against modern theory as exemplified by what Japanese players use. He barely touches on the very basics such as how to count de-iri style because the basic tenet of his book is about changing attitudes. On top of all that, the climax of the book is the use of a formula for making not "basic global decisions" but rather advanced global decisions to do with winning the game. I see no sign in Robert's self-review that much of what O says appears in "Values", so to say "Values" makes O's book non-essential is, well valueless.

My own view of O's book can be inferred from the fact that I bothered to translate it (nb for myself - don't ask). But I'll be explicit. It can be a slightly irritating book because O is not a born technical writer, but it is not just "good" but excellent. It is the best yose book for amateurs available (by a long way) because the method works. It retains the simplicity and sensible prioritising of previous Japanese books (amateur ghost writers' pages on sixteenths excepted), so it is easy to learn. It is sufficient in itself. OK, it is in Japanese, so you may have to make do with inferior English works, much of the content of which is made redundant by O's insights. But that's hardly O's fault.
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Re: Review: The Endgame (Ogawa / Davies)

Post by asura »

Bill Spight wrote: Here is a simple example. Suppose that such a player accurately counts the game and finds that White is 3.5 points behind. He also sees that there are only a few gote left on the board, the largest of which is worth 5 pts. (by deiri counting, which he thinks is the only kind). He erroneously thinks that White, who has the move, has a chance of winning.
Of corse thats true, but you have simply created an example, where miai-counting is more easy/comfortable to use.
It comes to the value of sente:
When the highest play is 5 points gote, then the player with sente can add in average 1.25 points to his score (it could be anything between 0 pints and 2.5).
This shouldn't be confused with the difference between sente and gote, because to pass in this situation will lose 0 to 5 points (in average 2.5 points).


Here is another example from real life. I don't remember the exact details, but a 5 dan who was also a computer scientist proposed something like this. Suppose that we have a 4 pt. sente with a simple threat worth 10 pts. (all by deiri counting). We multiply the sente value by 2 to get a value of 8 pts. Then we add the values together to get 18 pts. Then, since there are three plays involved, we calculate the gain for each play by dividing by 3, so the sente play gains 6 pts.

Then there are people who think that because you multiply the value of a sente play by 2, you should multiply the value of a double sente play by 4.

The problem is people who think that they understand deiri counting, who don't.
I think the mistakes in the two last examples result from a bad logic and are not very much related to deiri vs miai.


Let me give an simple example myself.
suppose there are three plays left: A = 4 points gote, B = 5 points gote, C = 3 points reverse sente. The miai-values are A = 2, B = 2.5, C = 3.
Where do you play?
1) If I start with B, then the opponent will play C in sente and take also A.
2) If I start with C, then the opponent will play B and I take A.

Deiri-values:
1) 5
2) 3 + 4 = 7

Miai-valus:
1) 2.5 - 2 = 0.5
2) 3 - 2.5 + 2 = 2.5

Both way show you, that 2) is two points better than 1). I think calculating with deiri-values is here much more comfortable, because you only add what you get.
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Re: Review: The Endgame (Ogawa / Davies)

Post by Bill Spight »

asura wrote:
Bill Spight wrote: Here is a simple example. Suppose that such a player accurately counts the game and finds that White is 3.5 points behind. He also sees that there are only a few gote left on the board, the largest of which is worth 5 pts. (by deiri counting, which he thinks is the only kind). He erroneously thinks that White, who has the move, has a chance of winning.
Of corse thats true, but you have simply created an example, where miai-counting is more easy/comfortable to use.
Actually, that was based upon an online discussion I chanced upon several years ago. Nobody in the discussion knew anything but deiri values (not by that name, OC). They were doing the best they could with what they had been taught.
Here is another example from real life. I don't remember the exact details, but a 5 dan who was also a computer scientist proposed something like this. Suppose that we have a 4 pt. sente with a simple threat worth 10 pts. (all by deiri counting). We multiply the sente value by 2 to get a value of 8 pts. Then we add the values together to get 18 pts. Then, since there are three plays involved, we calculate the gain for each play by dividing by 3, so the sente play gains 6 pts.

Then there are people who think that because you multiply the value of a sente play by 2, you should multiply the value of a double sente play by 4.

The problem is people who think that they understand deiri counting, who don't.
I think the mistakes in the two last examples result from a bad logic and are not very much related to deiri vs miai.
They are very much related to how go move evaluation is traditionally taught.
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Re: Review: The Endgame (Ogawa / Davies)

Post by Bill Spight »

asura wrote:Let me give an simple example myself.
suppose there are three plays left: A = 4 points gote, B = 5 points gote, C = 3 points reverse sente. The miai-values are A = 2, B = 2.5, C = 3.
Where do you play?
1) If I start with B, then the opponent will play C in sente and take also A.
2) If I start with C, then the opponent will play B and I take A.

Deiri-values:
1) 5
2) 3 + 4 = 7

Miai-valus:
1) 2.5 - 2 = 0.5
2) 3 - 2.5 + 2 = 2.5

Both way show you, that 2) is two points better than 1). I think calculating with deiri-values is here much more comfortable, because you only add what you get.
Well, that is not how deiri values are taught or understood by most players. C'est domage, but there you are.

Many players will think that the calculation by deiri values would look like this.

1) 5 - 2*3 - 4 = 5 - 6 - 4 = -5

(Why subtract 3 pts.? Because they do not know that sente does not gain points. Even dan players will argue with you about that. Why multiply the sente value by 2? Because that's what you do to get the deiri value of sente. Why subtract at all? Because they think that deiri values mean the same thing as miai values.)

2) 2*3 - 5 + 4 = 6 - 5 + 4 = 5

{shrug}

----

Edit: Let us represent the plays using CGT notation, with the first player being Black:

A = {4 | 0} + C1 ; C1 being some constant, which we can ignore in the comparison

B = {5 | 0} + C2 ; Ditto C2

C = {3 || 0 | -Big} + C3 ; Ditto C3. Big is a large positive value

Your calculations are fine. But they are not deiri calculations. The players are right that the deiri value of C is 6. They are wrong to apply it to both sente and reverse sente, but nobody taught them that.

What you are using are final results, or final results minus a constant.

1) 5 + C1 + C2 + C3
2) 3 + 4 + C1 + C2 + C3 = 7 + C1 + C2 + C3

You are using final results correctly, but they are not deiri values.

Edit 2: Let's adjust the constants so that the mean value of each position is 0. Just for fun. :)

A = {2 | -2} + C1 ; C1 being some constant, which we can ignore in the comparison

B = {2.5 | -2.5} + C2 ; Ditto C2

C = {3 || 0 | -Big} + C3 ; Ditto C3. Big is a large positive value

Then we get this.

1) 2.5 - 2 + C1 + C2 + C3 = 0.5 + C1 + C2 + C3
2) 3 - 2.5 + 2 + C1 + C2 + C3 = 2.5 + C1 + C2 + C3

Voila! Using final results for comparison is equivalent to using miai values. :)

OC, that was your point. This was for the benefit of our readers. :)

Edit 3: Comparison in terms of final values is always correct. :) It requires neither miai values nor deiri values.

But miai values, as taught, will yield comparisons that are consistent with final values. Deiri values, as taught, may or may not do so.

Edit 4: I was a bit disappointed to see that Robert included a section on traditional theory in his book. Because the traditional theory has been so poorly taught and understood, whatever he said, he was bound to get an argument. O Meien does not bother with it, and neither would I. (Not that I would not appeal to final values, since doing so is always correct. :) In fact, I would start by appealing to final values.)
Last edited by Bill Spight on Tue Aug 28, 2018 2:58 pm, edited 9 times in total.
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Re: Review: The Endgame (Ogawa / Davies)

Post by RobertJasiek »

John, I need not read Japanese to understand most of the calculatios in O's book because they are clear from the written arithmetics, move / diagram references, words whose meaning is apparent from text-positional context, recognising a few kanjis, knowing modern endgsme theory and therefore knowing what kinds of values might be being calculated, your earlier explanation of error margins and a few answers by others here on my most relevant missing aspects of understanding the contents.

In recent years, some Asian professionals at European Go Congresses showed their interest in fractional endgame values, expecting us to calculate them precisely. History changes and imprecision of the past is overcome by those professionals taking evaluation seriously.

You are trying to make fun of the 16th fraction. There are times when rounding is good enough and times when accurate fractions are needed to order moves of similar values or other purposes. Do not pretend that similar move values would not occur. Such decisions are frequent. With iterative follow-ups, higher fractions occur. Distinguishing them decides close games.

Massive overkill? Do you deny that the following is useful and important? Evaluating positions, evaluating moves when Black's and White's moves gain different amounts, evaluating how much more a player gains during a sequence, playing moves in their correct order during the early endgame, as before during the late endgame (before the microendgame) etc. Nothing of this is an overkill. Quite contrarily, each such aspect is of central importance. Even Ben Lockard is aware of appreciating different values of next Black and White moves, as he reports after coming back from studying in Korea, see the Surrounding Game.

Wake up. Ignorance of useful endgame concepts is the past. Excessive rounding is for beginners or lazy, advanced players. Improving means better appreciating the details. Says not only Kageyama. Every professional at EGCs stresses this attitude, even the Japanese.
Last edited by RobertJasiek on Tue Aug 28, 2018 9:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Review: The Endgame (Ogawa / Davies)

Post by Bill Spight »

John Fairbairn wrote:We know that de-iri counting was known before 1844, because that was when Genan published what he claimed was the first book on counting boundary plays. He did not use the term de-iri, which may not have been used until the early 20th century, and he did not claim to have invented the concept (despite being brash enough to publicise himself) and he did not feel the need to explain the counting method. All this strongly suggests the method was already well known then, and since the endgame play of Edo players is regularly praised even today we may safely assume it already had a long history. That is, there had already been ample time for refinements to emerge.
The method may well have originated in the Inoue house. I suspect that publication indicates that players in other houses had caught on by then. Perhaps secrets had been leaked. ;)
Sakaguchi Junei (a very strong amateur) introduced the concept of miai counting to Kido readers in 1955. We also see amateurs' articles about fractional followers and corridors and the like.

{snip}

Then O Meien came along. He introduced to Japan a new way of treating boundary plays called absolute counting. He said he was surprised Japanese players did not use this superior technique, but it was normal in China (I think he meant what we would call Taiwan). Apart from the novel method, his book was remarkable in that he clearly wrote it himself. Another important feature is that his method, once understood, is very easy to apply. In actual play O Meien does not fuss about sixteenths, corridors or other esoterica any more than his Japanese colleagues do. It's just that his method (or perhaps better: approach) cuts through the confusion caused by de-iri and miai counting (caused by overzealous amateurs?) and also overcomes the delusions that Bill mentions often, such as sente being worth something.

{snip}

My own view of O's book can be inferred from the fact that I bothered to translate it (nb for myself - don't ask). But I'll be explicit. It can be a slightly irritating book because O is not a born technical writer, but it is not just "good" but excellent. It is the best yose book for amateurs available (by a long way) because the method works. It retains the simplicity and sensible prioritising of previous Japanese books (amateur ghost writers' pages on sixteenths excepted), so it is easy to learn. It is sufficient in itself. OK, it is in Japanese, so you may have to make do with inferior English works, much of the content of which is made redundant by O's insights. But that's hardly O's fault.
JF believes that O Meien's method is new despite being miai counting, because of the very poor way that miai counting was treated in prior literature. (Although Takagawa treats it properly in his Igo Reader series, as I recall.) No wonder John did not recognize it. O's book deserves the high praise that John gives it. :D
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Re: Review: The Endgame (Ogawa / Davies)

Post by asura »

Bill Spight wrote:
asura wrote:Let me give an simple example myself.
suppose there are three plays left: A = 4 points gote, B = 5 points gote, C = 3 points reverse sente. The miai-values are A = 2, B = 2.5, C = 3.
Where do you play?
1) If I start with B, then the opponent will play C in sente and take also A.
2) If I start with C, then the opponent will play B and I take A.

Deiri-values:
1) 5
2) 3 + 4 = 7

Miai-valus:
1) 2.5 - 2 = 0.5
2) 3 - 2.5 + 2 = 2.5

Both way show you, that 2) is two points better than 1). I think calculating with deiri-values is here much more comfortable, because you only add what you get.

Edit: Let us represent the plays using CGT notation, with the first player being Black:

A = {4 | 0} + C1 ; C1 being some constant, which we can ignore in the comparison

B = {5 | 0} + C2 ; Ditto C2

C = {3 || 0 | -Big} + C3 ; Ditto C3. Big is a large positive value

Your calculations are fine. But they are not deiri calculations.

What you are using are final results, or final results minus a constant.

1) 5 + C1 + C2 + C3
2) 3 + 4 + C1 + C2 + C3 = 7 + C1 + C2 + C3

You are using final results correctly, but they are not deiri values.
However, exactly this is the method, that Ogawa use! :) I have always thought, this mehod would be called deiri and I think Robert also said this book uses deiri.
Anyway, in the book, you multiply reverse sente with two ONLY to compare it to a gote. For me this exactly equivalent to dividing the gote by two.
It would make no sense, to double a sente or reverse sente on the bord, because if I make two points in sente by capturing one stone, how should it ever become four points?
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Re: Review: The Endgame (Ogawa / Davies)

Post by Knotwilg »

Even as a mathematician, I'm with John F. on this one. For all practical purposes, on amateur level, "fractions gain nothing". That is not to say that the theory should not be developed and neither will I argue that professionals can benefit or not from better theory. Pros are squeezing out the last half point and when dealing with AIs who calculate winning probabilities, pros probably need very sharp (endgame) theory. No progress was ever made by mocking new development." However ...

Amateurs need to make less mistakes. And we make plenty, regardless of whether we understand deiri/miai counting.

If you take the example of (A=4 gote, B=5 gote, C is 3 sente for White) and this is all that remains on the board then Black should indeed take C first. You don't have to know any counting method for that, you just perform basic arithmetic in a short logic tree.

Such examples rarely occur in reality, where a high number of plays is available and you need a good, practicle heuristic for any situation under time pressure. That heuristic is:

"Take your big sente first (small sente serve as ko threats)
then take the largest gote"

Yes, we will make a mistake in the above situation, ignoring the reverse sente. But on average, we'll make less mistakes, because in reality there will not be a construction of two remaining gote, but a gote sequence A1, A2, ... with some sente mixed in between which become big enough to waste as a ko threat.

Then there is the matter of who is ahread. Here the heuristic is:

"If you are ahead, be conservative, respond to sente; make no exchanges and avoid major kos
if you are behind, take more risks, revoke sente, apply mutual damage and seek ko"

Now, what I'm writing here can be wrong or an exaggerated simplification even for amateurs, but this is the kind of thing amateurs should think about. Discussing counting methods and fractions is very interesting in itself, but does it really lead to manageable decision making which is significantly more correct under time pressure? What are your experiences, as players, Bill, Robert ...
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