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 Post subject: Re: How to Become a Dan
Post #101 Posted: Fri Aug 31, 2018 9:24 am 
Gosei
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Lecture 2, in which LZ finds a better local move than Kim 9p's joseki and also casts some doubt on the firm difference Kim sees with the "non-joseki"


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 Post subject: Re: How to Become a Dan
Post #102 Posted: Fri Aug 31, 2018 9:39 am 
Gosei
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Analyzing lecture 3 with LZ gives the most astonishing result until now: here's a non-joseki all of us know as a beginner mistake which can be duly punished. LZ agrees that the joseki move is better but not for the shape consequences we have been taught but because ... it keeps sente and not just that.

I think I've discovered a new proverb: "use sente to play 3-3 in the corner opposite to the current action"


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 Post subject: Re: How to Become a Dan
Post #103 Posted: Fri Aug 31, 2018 5:50 pm 
Lives with ko

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Interesting that you hadn't seen the following move before, this way of refuting this sequence I've definitely seen pros lecture about and teach, actually slightly more frequently in my personal encounters I've seen this way taught than the other way. I had thought it was pretty standard knowledge (along with, for dan players, considerations about if white has a top side stone that could let him try E18 cut and then crawl at F18).

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . X X X O 1 . . .
$$ | . X O O . . . . .
$$ | . O O . . . . . .
$$ | . . X . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . O . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]


I do think different pros have in the past favored teaching different sequences in response to the initial hane. Having seen both ways taught, I'm glad to see LZ at least in this one case suggest the one I personally favor a bit more. :)

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 Post subject: Re: How to Become a Dan
Post #104 Posted: Fri Aug 31, 2018 9:28 pm 
Honinbo

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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . 1 X X W . . . .
$$ | . . O O 2 . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . O . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]


When I was 3 dan in game reviews I started telling my opponents who had played the hane, :wc:, to connect at :w2:. I even played that hane-and-connect sometimes myself. ;) I had realized that in general the connection was good, but I still thought that the descent, :b1:, was correct.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . X X X . 2 4 . .
$$ | . X O O O . . . .
$$ | . O 1 . . . 3 . .
$$ | . . B . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . O . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]


Until AlphaGo, I still thought that :w1: was correct, even though :bc: still had significant aji. To counter that I usually continued with :w3:, expecting :b4: in response, and happy when Black did not play it.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . X X X . . . . .
$$ | . X O O O . . . .
$$ | . O . . . . . . .
$$ | . 1 B . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . O . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]


IMX, most beginners wanted to connect underneath with :w1:. I told them that was wrong. :oops: OC, :bc: still has aji because of the threat to cut, but it's not too hard to convince yourself that the beginners were right.

Later, when I learned about this clamp, the argument seemed rather subtle to me.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . 3 . . . .
$$ | . X X X W 1 . . .
$$ | . X O O 2 . . . .
$$ | . O @ . . . . . .
$$ | . . X . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . O . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]


Tewari comparison with joseki indicated that the exchange of :wc: and :b3: was aji keshi. We now have to recognize that :ws: is misplaced, as well. ;)

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 Post subject: Re: How to Become a Dan
Post #105 Posted: Sat Sep 01, 2018 12:02 am 
Judan

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RE lecture 3: Yes, I'm rather surprised Knotwilg didn't know the descent being the fake punishment for DDKs nor seen the clamp! I've been saying that on these boards for years when this hane not extend question is asked, as it repeatedly is. See viewtopic.php?p=161728#p161728 from 2014 and following dozen posts with discussion and links to other threads from 2014 and 2012.

P.S what LZ and how many playouts are you using Knotwilg? The way you write about variations ending suggests you might be just looking at principle variation of suggested move instead of playing them out. For example for me LZ #157 in lecture 2 wants to crawl not cut after the shoulder hit joseki from 1k to 50k playouts by 55% vs 52%. And the classic punishment for white's cut in the case black has the ladder is to atari on the outside and push, a move LZ barely considers. But that could be revealing a weakness of LZ as it's bad at seeing ladders 10 moves in the future. So if I take the role of black "punishing the cut" and let LZ play as white let's see what happens. It sees the ladder within a few thousand playouts and we end up with black capturing the 2 stones (with some bad aji) and white getting a wall outside with black at 47%, lower than the push down is predicted to be at that time (but actually playing it out black's win% deteriorates, interesting it doesn't play the supposed tesuji cut):
Attachment:
llknot-l2a.PNG
llknot-l2a.PNG [ 808.79 KiB | Viewed 3572 times ]


P.P.S we should remember the lecture series is called "How to Become a Dan" so is aimed at kyus. So recommending the descent instead of hane, which is IMO (and not-ancient pro opinion) a bad move unless your opponent is a generous noob and blocks is fair to criticise as bad teaching for being outright wrong. But something like tenuki or the counter pincer instead of shoulder press in lecture 2 is fine teaching as it's a simpler move that makes your stones work together (and only -0.2% in LZ 157). Pros do sometimes play a counter pincer (with a little more global reason to do so). LZ doesn't know how to temper its advice from "How to Become a 10p".

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 Post subject: Re: How to Become a Dan
Post #106 Posted: Sat Sep 01, 2018 1:08 am 
Oza

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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . X X X . 2 4 . .
$$ | . X O O O . . . .
$$ | . O 1 . . . 3 . .
$$ | . . B . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . O . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]


I'm puzzled why both knotwilg and Bill seem to have regarded this as joseki. Kitani, in his joseki dictionary, says it is bad for White as he is overconcentrated.

In fact Kitani says E16 was the mistake. He recommended B17, which doesn't even get a mention in my LZ setup. LZ offers only E16 and the B14 link-up, which Kitani in turn doesn't mention. (However, all Kitani's judgements should probably be seen as being based on no-komi go).

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 Post subject: Re: How to Become a Dan
Post #107 Posted: Sat Sep 01, 2018 8:07 am 
Honinbo

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John Fairbairn wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . X X X . 2 4 . .
$$ | . X O O O . . . .
$$ | . O 1 . . . 3 . .
$$ | . . B . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . O . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]


I'm puzzled why both knotwilg and Bill seem to have regarded this as joseki. Kitani, in his joseki dictionary, says it is bad for White as he is overconcentrated.

In fact Kitani says E16 was the mistake. He recommended B17, which doesn't even get a mention in my LZ setup. LZ offers only E16 and the B14 link-up, which Kitani in turn doesn't mention. (However, all Kitani's judgements should probably be seen as being based on no-komi go).


If I had to guess, I'd say it was from an article in Igo Curabbu many moons ago. Since my way of studying joseki is mainly to look something up if I feel I have messed up, I don't think I ever had occasion to look this sequence up. :lol:

_________________
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At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?

— Winona Adkins

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— Steve Davis

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 Post subject: Re: How to Become a Dan
Post #108 Posted: Sun Sep 02, 2018 6:15 pm 
Oza
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John Fairbairn wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . X X X . 2 4 . .
$$ | . X O O O . . . .
$$ | . O 1 . . . 3 . .
$$ | . . B . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . O . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]


I'm puzzled why both knotwilg and Bill seem to have regarded this as joseki. Kitani, in his joseki dictionary, says it is bad for White as he is overconcentrated.

In fact Kitani says E16 was the mistake. He recommended B17, which doesn't even get a mention in my LZ setup. LZ offers only E16 and the B14 link-up, which Kitani in turn doesn't mention. (However, all Kitani's judgements should probably be seen as being based on no-komi go).


I was interested because some of Kitani's opinions were quite iconoclastic. AFAIK (via a quick review in GoGoD) he never played this joseki as White (either with E16 or B17). In fact he does not seem to have liked the low 1-space pincer in general. The only game in which he played it was against Kubomatsu in the 1935 Oteai. Kubomatsu answered with a double approach at F17 rather than jumping in to 3-3.

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 Post subject: Re: How to Become a Dan
Post #109 Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2019 2:02 am 
lovelove wrote:
This will be about common mistakes usually seen in kyu games, and how to punish them.
Given the extraordinary popularity of this thread, only a very foolish person would dare to risk her life by daring to question the very basis of the entire lecture series.

So here we go ... :)

How to become strong is, i humbly submit, the exact opposite of learning how to punish weak players' mistakes, for all that will do is turn you into the Neighbourhood Bully that Bob Dylan sang so eloquently about.
To hear the song the way it's meant to be heard, download it into your local video editor and slow it down!

So - Instead of beating up smaller kids, pit your wits against those stronger than you, and aim to learn from the way they handle your own blunders.

Of course, it won't be apparent to you which of your moves is a blunder, but Lizzie or Sabaki can tell you when you are safe back home with a copy of your sgf (or a video of your game) in your pocket.

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