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 Post subject: This is just a bad move
Post #1 Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 6:28 am 
Lives in sente

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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ----------------------+
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ . . . . . O a X O . . |
$$ . , . . . . . X O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]


To connect at a is just a bad move. What is your opinion?

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 Post subject: Re: This is just a bad move
Post #2 Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 6:32 am 
Lives in sente

Posts: 1087
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ----------------------+
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ . . . . . O X X O . . |
$$ . , . . . . . X O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . W . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]


ugly shape

no good follow ups for black

there are just bigger moves in the fuseki (aka approach 4-4 in another corner > connecting at a)

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 Post subject: Re: This is just a bad move
Post #3 Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 6:37 am 
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There are no good follow ups for white also:

This is gote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ----------------------+
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ . . . . . O W X O . . |
$$ . , . . . . . X O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ----------------------+
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . 2 X O O . . |
$$ . . . . 1 O W X O . . |
$$ . , . . . . . X O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: This is just a bad move
Post #4 Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 6:39 am 
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This is just very bad for white:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ----------------------+
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . W X O O . . |
$$ . . . . . O . X O . . |
$$ . , . . . . . X O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . X 1 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: This is just a bad move
Post #5 Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 6:41 am 
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Best local play for white is still not sente and too small in the opening stage.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ----------------------+
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ . . . . . O . X O . . |
$$ . , . . . . . X O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . W . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: This is just a bad move
Post #6 Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 9:00 am 
Dies with sente

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Rank: FFG 1d
I don't see "a" in the first as bad. I think that because black hasn't played a pincer, he hasn't commited to a side and he wants to keep his options open.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ----------------------+
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ . . . . . O X X O . . |
$$ . , . . . a . X O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . b O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . c . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Is the black shape that ugly? Sure there is an empty triangle and not that many libertie but all the stones are connected as a single string. a, b, c or a move around the top all look like reasonable follow ups.


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ----------------------+
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ . . . . . O W X O . . |
$$ . , . . . . . X O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

I agree that it's probably gote but does it means that the move is bad? I feel like it's gote because it's hard for black to continue locally, because he wants both the turn and an extension but he can't get both in one turn. In one move, white cuts black and connects all of his stones while a black stone at the same place would also connect all the black stones and cut the white stones.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ . . . . . . . . .
$$ . . . . . . . . .
$$ . . . . X . . . .
$$ . . . O a O . . .
$$ . . . . X . . . .
$$ . . . . . . . . .[/go]

In a position like the one above, playing at a may very well be gote as the opposite stones are in such distress you would be better off doing something else on the board. It would still like a great place to play.


This post by explo was liked by 2 people: dfan, Gomoto
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 Post subject: Re: This is just a bad move
Post #7 Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 9:38 am 
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Just to be clear, we are talking about the opening stage and there are still bigger moves like approaching a 3-4 stone or 4-4 stone available.

I dont want to say it is a bad play in all board positions. But at the stage this joseki normally appears in a game the play at a is a "bad move" in my opinion.

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 Post subject: Re: This is just a bad move
Post #8 Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 10:08 am 
Dies with sente

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Rank: FFG 1d
Gomoto wrote:
Just to be clear, we are talking about the opening stage and there are still bigger moves like approaching a 3-4 stone or 4-4 stone available.

I dont want to say it is a bad play in all board positions. But at the stage this joseki normally appears in a game the play at a is a "bad move" in my opinion.


I hear you, but how often is this move happening very early in the game? For me the situation is different if it arives from a black pincer (much more common, especially before the strong IA). In this case, white being allowed to cut puts the pincer in a weird position.

Also, if you're very early in the game, is the 3-3 invasion really sente? If black ignores it, does white has anything severe as a follow up? Ignoring a double approach would feel a lot more severe.

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 Post subject: Re: This is just a bad move
Post #9 Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 10:27 am 
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Just some examples from recent pro games:

Ke Jie 9p - Tang Weixing 9p, W+Resign (Komi 7.5)
20th Chinese League A, round 11, 2018-08-06


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O O . . . . , . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: This is just a bad move
Post #10 Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 10:29 am 
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Song Taekon 9p - Kim Cheayoung 4p, W+Resign (Komi 6.5)
20th Nongshim Cup, Korean preliminary, 2018-07-13


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . X . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: This is just a bad move
Post #11 Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 10:30 am 
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Lee Yeongkyu 9p - Lee Jihyun (m) 7p, W+Resign (Komi 6.5)
year 2018 Korean League, round 4, 2018-07-12

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: This is just a bad move
Post #12 Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 10:31 am 
Lives in sente

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Shin Jinseo 9p - Lee Donghoon 9p, W+Resign (Komi 6.5)
year 2018 Korean League, round 3, 2018-07-01

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X O . X . . . . . . . O . . O . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: This is just a bad move
Post #13 Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 10:33 am 
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In fact connecting at a is not occuring in any recent game of my pro game database.

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 Post subject: Re: This is just a bad move
Post #14 Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 10:40 am 
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My personal conclusion:

All connections are not created equal ;-)

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 Post subject: Re: This is just a bad move
Post #15 Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 10:47 am 
Lives in gote

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Universal go server handle: BlindGroup
The positions in your pro game also seem to be missing the corner player jumping to the 6-3 point. Could that omission be significant? Without it, the player on the outside still has the option to turn at the 5-3 point. Might taking the resulting side position might be judged sufficient compensation for losing a second-line stone.

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 Post subject: Re: This is just a bad move
Post #16 Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 11:34 am 
Oza

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Quote:
In fact connecting at a is not occuring in any recent game of my pro game database.


Well, I've got about 40 this year alone (and many for 2017). The surrounding position obviously matters, so if we just search on the first 20 moves to eliminate much of that noise, there are still almost 20 - and top players such as Yi Se-tol and Jiang Weijie have played it, some within the last fortnight.

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 Post subject: Re: This is just a bad move
Post #17 Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 11:36 am 
Lives in gote

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Rank: KGS 2k
GD Posts: 100
KGS: Tryss
John Fairbairn wrote:
Quote:
In fact connecting at a is not occuring in any recent game of my pro game database.


Well, I've got about 40 this year alone (and many for 2017). The surrounding position obviously matters, so if we just search on the first 20 moves to eliminate much of that noise, there are still almost 20 - and top players such as Yi Se-tol and Jiang Weijie have played it, some within the last fortnight.


You're not talking about positions with a black stone very close like this ?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ----------------------+
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ . . . X . O a X O . . |
$$ . , . . . . . X O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: This is just a bad move
Post #18 Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 12:01 pm 
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Kim Minseok 1p - Na Hyun 9p, B+Resign (Komi 6.5)
year 2018 Korean League, round 1, 2018-06-17


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . X 2 . . . . O . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . 3 O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



Shin Minjun 8p - Paek Hongseok 9p, W+Resign (Komi 6.5)
year 2018 Korean League, round 1, 2018-06-15

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X O . X 3 . . . . O . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: This is just a bad move
Post #19 Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 12:04 pm 
Oza

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Quote:
You're not talking about positions with a black stone very close like this ?


No, I used a larger empty quadrant

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 Post subject: Re: This is just a bad move
Post #20 Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 12:09 pm 
Lives in sente

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Ke Jie 9p - Fan Tingyu 9p, W+Resign (Komi 7.5)
20th Chinese League A, round 8, 2018-06-02

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . O , . O . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 4 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 1 X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O O . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . X X X . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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