Does anyone know how to resolve this issue on Fox? I just played the game below that ended with the scoring algorithm judging the top group as alive. In this case, it didn't affect the outcome of the game, but how do you mark stones dead if the scoring estimator incorrectly judges them alive? The only option I seem to have after both players accept automatic scoring is to accept the result. There does not seem to be a way to alter the result. There is a button called "marked dead" at the bottom of the window, but that seems to be inoperable during automatic scoring.
Fox Go Server
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BlindGroup
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BlindGroup
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Re: Fox Go Server
I feel like I may not understand when a group is declared dead by rule. I look at this, and I see the following:Gomoto wrote:I see unresolved play, not dead stones
Aka dont botch it by playing on the wrong spot.
1. Black can't play at either O17 or N17 without dying.
2. White can make a killing shape with N17.
Does white have to play N17 for the group to be ruled dead under the normal Japanese counting rules?
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Tryss
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Re: Fox Go Server
Japanese rules are never implemented correctly on go servers. Under japanese rules, if there is a disagreement, players should play the situation, then rewind before you played the situation.
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BlindGroup
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Re: Fox Go Server
Yes, ultimately, you are correct, and I think that is what happened in this game. I requested counting twice, the system scored the group dead and my opponent rejected the outcome. For some reason, after filling in a few dame, the system scored it alive, and my opponent was willing to accept that outcome.Tryss wrote:Japanese rules are never implemented correctly on go servers. Under japanese rules, if there is a disagreement, players should play the situation, then rewind before you played the situation.
The problem is that I have no idea how to resolve this on Fox. On IGS, for example, players can mark groups dead and reset changes to the scoring of the board after the system scores it.
But there is also this larger question of what the official rules say about this position. Does white have to waste a point? Or is the group officially dead under Japanese scoring?
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Tryss
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Re: Fox Go Server
With official Japanese rules, white don't have to waste a point.
Now the big question : why not play with easier rules? (I would even say more sensible rules
)
Now the big question : why not play with easier rules? (I would even say more sensible rules
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BlindGroup
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Re: Fox Go Server
You'll have to ask the Fox folks that oneTryss wrote:With official Japanese rules, white don't have to waste a point.
Now the big question : why not play with easier rules? (I would even say more sensible rules
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Drew
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Re: Fox Go Server
Tryss has already answered this question, but I will rephrase:BlindGroup wrote:But there is also this larger question of what the official rules say about this position. Does white have to waste a point? Or is the group officially dead under Japanese scoring?Tryss wrote:Japanese rules are never implemented correctly on go servers. Under japanese rules, if there is a disagreement, players should play the situation, then rewind before you played the situation.
If players do not agree on a group's status you:
- Note the current board condition
- Play additional moves until the group's status is unambiguous. In your case, it would mean Black would pass and White would play to kill
- Return to the original board condition, and score according to the result of step 2
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ez4u
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Re: Fox Go Server
Just contact an admin. Fox's admin staff are supposed to be very fast and helpful (I haven't played there myself but it seems to be the normal advice here for all issues on Fox).
Dave Sigaty
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paK0
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Re: Fox Go Server
Does anyone know how the fox ranks are compared to other servers?
My opponents at 6k keep making a lot of easy joseki mistakes that stopped around 10k on kgs(has been a while there since I played there though).
Two examples: Stuff like that happens almost once a game.
My opponents at 6k keep making a lot of easy joseki mistakes that stopped around 10k on kgs(has been a while there since I played there though).
Two examples: Stuff like that happens almost once a game.
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dfan
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Re: Fox Go Server
I believe Fox and Tygem are both around 2 stones weaker than KGS overall.
Another difference is that players there are stronger at fighting (for their level) and weaker at joseki/fuseki (for their level). So it is not too surprising that you see a 6k player on Fox whose joseki knowledge is similar to a 10k player on KGS. Be careful once the fighting starts, though!
The first "mistake" you list is not actually as bad as you think, by the way. (There are extended discussions about it on L19 but unfortunately they're hard to find.) But at your level people are probably playing it for the wrong reasons.
Another difference is that players there are stronger at fighting (for their level) and weaker at joseki/fuseki (for their level). So it is not too surprising that you see a 6k player on Fox whose joseki knowledge is similar to a 10k player on KGS. Be careful once the fighting starts, though!
The first "mistake" you list is not actually as bad as you think, by the way. (There are extended discussions about it on L19 but unfortunately they're hard to find.) But at your level people are probably playing it for the wrong reasons.
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Bill Spight
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Re: Fox Go Server
Under all pro rules the Black group in the top is dead as it stands.BlindGroup wrote:But there is also this larger question of what the official rules say about this position. Does white have to waste a point? Or is the group officially dead under Japanese scoring?
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
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Everything with love. Stay safe.
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
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BlindGroup
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Re: Fox Go Server
I can confirm that you will see these sorts of moves very regularly at least through 1k. It's very humbling to be soundly beaten by someone who plays "wrong" move after "wrong" move. Really forces you to be sure that you understand why the right moves are the right onespaK0 wrote:Does anyone know how the fox ranks are compared to other servers? My opponents at 6k keep making a lot of easy joseki mistakes that stopped around 10k on kgs(has been a while there since I played there though).
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Drew
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Re: Fox Go Server
paK0 wrote: My opponents at 6k keep making a lot of easy joseki mistakes that stopped around 10k on kgs(has been a while there since I played there though).
Two examples:
Don't leave us weaklings hanging like that, Bill! Please exposit!Bill Spight wrote:Under all pro rules the Black group in the top is dead as it stands.
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dfan
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Re: Fox Go Server
Bill was referring to this board position.Drew wrote:Don't leave us weaklings hanging like that, Bill! Please exposit!Bill Spight wrote:Under all pro rules the Black group in the top is dead as it stands.