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 Post subject: Mickey Mouse time limits
Post #1 Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2018 1:20 am 
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The thread at viewtopic.php?p=239835#p239835 was hijacked to devolve into some bickering about the emotional reaction produced by the adjective "Mickey Mouse" when applied to tournament time limit.

Merriam-Webster defines the adjective "Mickey Mouse" as: "too easy, small, ineffective, or unimportant to be taken seriously".

Note that John didn't use "Mickey Mouse" to refer to the games but to the time limits.

So I created this thread as a place to continue the discussion.

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Post #2 Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2018 1:29 am 
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Quote:
a slang expression meaning small-time, amateurish or trivial. In the United Kingdom and Ireland, it also means poor quality or counterfeit. However, in parts of Australia it can mean excellent or very good (rhyming slang for "grouse").
Quote:
adjective (sometimes not capitals) slang. ineffective; trivial; insignificant. (e.g. he settled for a Mickey Mouse job instead of something challenging.) mainly US and Canadian (of music, esp that of dance bands) mechanical or spiritless.

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 Post subject: Re: Mickey Mouse time limits
Post #3 Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2018 1:53 am 
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Mickey Mouse: The International Mouse of Handshakes ;) :D

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Post #4 Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2018 1:58 am 
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EdLee wrote:
adjective (sometimes not capitals) slang. ineffective; trivial; insignificant. (e.g. he settled for a Mickey Mouse job instead of something challenging.) mainly US and Canadian (of music, esp that of dance bands) mechanical or spiritless.


A "Mickey Mouse job" sounds a bit like a "McJob". So maybe we can call professional tournaments with such time limits also a "McTournament"? :)

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 Post subject: Re: Mickey Mouse time limits
Post #5 Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2018 3:57 am 
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Other suggestions:
  • A Donald Duck Tournament
  • A tournament that disnae work.

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 Post subject: Re: Mickey Mouse time limits
Post #6 Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2018 8:11 am 
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We have the right to say that the time limits for a tournament are wrong. What's the problem with using the term Mickey Mouse? Does it imply too strongly that these are limits unworthy of a professional competition? If John used an alternative like "Blitz" , "Dopey" (possible Snow White and the seven dwarves reference there), or "Titmouse" (à la Staunton) what the hell difference would it make? Really, I don't get it.

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Post #7 Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2018 8:40 am 
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Well, I have been trying to stay out of this (for many years), but against my better judgment I will grace you all with my beautiful opinions and then bow out. Enjoy!

  • Faster time controls are totally a thing, which people may or may not like for all sorts of reasons
  • To discuss them rationally, it's best to have a term that as much as possible is objective and does not imply judgment by itself
  • For example, chess uses the terms "rapid" and "blitz", which work for me
  • "Mickey Mouse time limits" does not fit the above criterion
  • Also as far as I can tell it belongs to the idiolect of one person, who is understandably passionate on the subject, so we see it here a lot
  • To me it diminishes the force of one's logical arguments to use a belittling term for the thing one is arguing against
  • But of course it is every person's right to do so
  • Every single thing I said above is MY OPINION ONLY

Happy holidays!


This post by dfan was liked by 2 people: Dontbtme, Uberdude
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 Post subject: Re: Mickey Mouse time limits
Post #8 Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2018 1:21 pm 
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Well, picking up on the word "bickering" in the OP and addressing myself mainly to those who affect to be offended a term used of an inanimate object like time limits, and especially those who claim to be have sic a panic in their breastie that they need a long time (not a short time, note) to calm down, I say they need to apply some perspective.

I'd like to remind them that there are far more important things in this world to worry about, by quoting a REAL catastrophe; this one, appropriately, from a mouse's point of view.

I'm going back to my schooldays of learning poetry by heart, but this is originally from the pen of the immortal Burns, the ploughman poet, who ploughed through a mouse's nest one day and found compassion in his heart.

Wee, sleekit, cow'rin, tim'rous beastie,
O, what a PANIC's in thy breastie!
Thou need na start awa sae hasty,
Wi' BICKERING brattle!
I wad be laith to rin an' chase thee,
Wi' murd'ring pattle!

I'm truly sorry man's dominion,
Has broken nature's social union,
An' justifies that ill opinion,
Which makes thee startle
At me, thy poor, earth-born companion,
An' fellow-mortal!

I doubt na, whiles, but thou may thieve;
What then? poor beastie, thou maun live!
A daimen icker in a thrave
'S a sma' request;
I'll get a blessin wi' the lave,
An' never miss't!

Thy wee bit housie, too, in ruin!
It's silly wa's the win's are strewin!
An' naething, now, to big a new ane,
O' foggage green!
An' bleak December's winds ensuin,
Baith snell an' keen!

Thou saw the fields laid bare an' waste,
An' weary winter comin fast,
An' cozie here, beneath the blast,
Thou thought to dwell-
Till crash! the cruel coulter past
Out thro' thy cell.

That wee bit heap o' leaves an' stibble,
Has cost thee mony a weary nibble!
Now thou's turn'd out, for a' thy trouble,
But house or hald,
To thole the winter's sleety dribble,
An' cranreuch cauld!

But, Mousie, thou art no thy lane,
In proving foresight may be vain;
The best-laid schemes o' mice an 'men
Gang aft agley,
An'lea'e us nought but grief an' pain,
For promis'd joy!

Still thou art blest, compar'd wi' me
The present only toucheth thee:
But, Och! I backward cast my e'e.
On prospects drear!
An' forward, tho' I canna see,
I guess an' fear!


Incidentally, it occurs to me that as a go reference, this verse is superbly apposite (e.g. of ijime):

Quote:
I doubt na, whiles, but thou may thieve;
What then? poor beastie, thou maun live!
A daimen icker in a thrave
'S a sma' request;
I'll get a blessin wi' the lave,
An' never miss't!


And this portion describes many a game:

Quote:
Thy wee bit housie, too, in ruin!
It's silly wa's the win's are strewin!
An' naething, now, to big a new ane.


But, you know, I must address myself, too. I try repeatedly to get discussions going here, 9 times out of 10 without success and often because (as in this latest case) threads are hijacked, so I should likewise heed the poet:

Quote:
The best-laid schemes o' mice an 'men
Gang aft agley.


I will stop trying to get discussions going.

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 Post subject: Re: Mickey Mouse time limits
Post #9 Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2018 2:36 pm 
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John Fairbairn wrote:
But, Mousie, thou art no thy lane,
In proving foresight may be vain;


I confess that I do not understand most of the poem - not being a native English speaker and all -, but these two lines seem to say:

Playing well with Mickey Mouse time limits proves that reading ahead may not be so important after all.

A few playouts on a well-trained neural noggin may be sufficient.

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Post #10 Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2018 2:47 pm 
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It seems this forum has four official languages: American, English, Scottish and broken English.

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 Post subject: Re: Mickey Mouse time limits
Post #11 Posted: Sat Dec 22, 2018 6:35 am 
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As John says, the "Mickey Mouse" term addresses an explicit choice to opt for shorter-time limits. It does not insult the Korean national character, it doesn't demean Koreans as people. It just implies that they have chosen a way of playing games that is bad for the game and cheapens it. It seems to me that's exactly the kind of discussion we should engage in here.

If John chooses a colorful way of saying it, that's his choice. If you think it's wrong, that's fine, if you think it's a silly opinion, that's fine too (perhaps you can call it a "Mickey Mouse opinion"). But I do not think it's reasonable to say "it's offensive, please stop".

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 Post subject: Re: Mickey Mouse time limits
Post #12 Posted: Sat Dec 22, 2018 7:20 am 
Oza

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Quote:
But, Mousie, thou art no thy lane,
In proving foresight may be vain;

I confess that I do not understand most of the poem - not being a native English speaker and all -, but these two lines seem to say:

Playing well with Mickey Mouse time limits proves that reading ahead may not be so important after all.

A few playouts on a well-trained neural noggin may be sufficient.


I realise you are being tongue-in-cheek but just so you know what they really mean:

But Mousie you are not alone, in proving foresight (= pre-emptive action) may be in vain.

The other go-related sections I quoted:

Quote:
I doubt na, whiles, but thou may thieve;
What then? poor beastie, thou maun live!
A daimen icker in a thrave
'S a sma' request;
I'll get a blessin wi' the lave,
An' never miss't!


I do not doubt that sometimes you may thieve
So what? Poor creature, ypu must live!
An occasional ear of corn in a stack of sheaves
Is a small request;
I'll be blessed with the rest of it
And never miss it.


Quote:
Thy wee bit housie, too, in ruin!
Its silly wa's the win's are strewin!
An' naething, now, to big a new ane.


Your tiny house, too, in ruins!
Its silly walls are being strewn by the winds,
And nothing now to build a new one.


Quote:
The best-laid schemes o' mice an 'men
Gang aft agley.


I imagine most people here knows this, but: "The best-laid plans of move and men go often awry".

Lang may yer lum reek.

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 Post subject: Re: Mickey Mouse time limits
Post #13 Posted: Sat Dec 22, 2018 7:26 am 
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I have a 'proper' graduate degree from an American university which takes longer time to get. Next time I talk with my British colleagues, I will suggest that they have 'Mickey Mouse' degrees to see if they get offended :lol:

In my opinion, short time limit is not necessarily a bad thing. Clearly it is good for those TV channels logistically, therefore to some degree help the promotion of Go. One can also argue that short time limit can sometimes produce more entertaining games.

I would personally avoid using such colourful language on this very INTERNATIONAL forum in order not to cause misunderstanding.

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 Post subject: Re: Mickey Mouse time limits
Post #14 Posted: Sat Dec 22, 2018 12:05 pm 
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Well, we must be careful we don't get a Mickey Mouse level of debate, too. (Or should I just say "trolling" in case someone gets offended?)

I have been posting on go forums for many years, and have had more than the odd ding-dong. It is almost invariably because someone tries to shut me or someone else (e.g. Robert Jasiek or TheCannyOnion) up, and so I bite back.

In doing so, I repeatedly try to point out certain important themes.

1. Go is just a trivial game. Despite what it says on the packet, it's NOT a game of life and death.

2. Freedom of expression.

3. Tolerance of differing views.

All within sensible limits, of course. But all those principles are too often overlooked completely by certain people (including some mods).

This is not really much of an international forum, if you look at all the countries that are not represented. That's probably a language issue and is unlikely to change in the foreseeable future. But what the forum CAN be, even while being essentially monolingual, is a BROAD CHURCH that practises tolerance.

Most people here happily fall into that congregation. But I see a great lack of tolerance in certain quarters. I see that intolerance sometimes expressed with an intemperate pulpit-grabbing vehemence. Yet there is another kind of intolerance we don't see - those people who sneakily complain anonymously to mods. Unfortunately it is difficult to tolerate such intolerance, but I CAN tolerate it. It's just that I tolerate it just enough so that I can expose it. And I do it myself - not anonymously via the mods' back door.

But go is just a trivial game, so I don't get worked up over it. I therefore don't feel the need to say any more on the subject, except that Mickey Mouse lives on.

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