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 Post subject: Replaying games or memorizing games?
Post #1 Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2019 12:08 pm 
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Hi everyone,

I read alot about this on here so far. There are some things I'd wish for some clarifications.

Replaying
1. Simply laid down the stones of a single game from an entire collection of the same player.
Qns: how many times do you replay a single game WITHOUT memorizing before moving on to the next game?
Qns: how many games a week?

Memorizing
1. Do u memorize and move on to the next game from the same collection and lets say u forgot the contents alr, would u go back to memorise?

Which would be better to internalize good shape, improve intuition

Go is about efficiency and of course I am sure everyone here wants to study efficiently. Henceforth, begs the question. Which of the above is more efficient and how are you guys going on about it?

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Post #2 Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2019 1:06 pm 
Honinbo

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When I was starting out I strongly believed in working things out instead of memorizing them. OTOH, I had a good memory. ;)

But considering that human pedagogy has a long history of memorization across many cultures, now I think that memorization has its place. Now I would memorize basic life and death, basic tesuji, basic semeai, basic endgame plays, basic shape. I would not memorize joseki or games.

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Post #3 Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2019 1:11 pm 
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Glummie wrote:
Hi everyone,

I read alot about this on here so far. There are some things I'd wish for some clarifications.

Replaying
1. Simply laid down the stones of a single game from an entire collection of the same player.
Qns: how many times do you replay a single game WITHOUT memorizing before moving on to the next game?


Once.

Quote:
Qns: how many games a week?


5 or 6, taking about 1 hour to study each game.

Quote:
Memorizing
1. Do u memorize and move on to the next game from the same collection and lets say u forgot the contents alr, would u go back to memorise?


If a game is worth further study, I would play it out and study it again, usually after a month or two, so I wouldn't just say yeah, yeah, because I had seen a move before.

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 Post subject: Re: Replaying games or memorizing games?
Post #4 Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2019 3:51 pm 
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Analogies (like music) often fail, but I can speak of the domain I master most, although unfortunately I didn't make a professional career out of it: math. I still occasionally study math, like a few years ago I studied the proof of the irrationality of Pi, which is quite a constructed and unintuitive proof. The only way to memorize that proof is understanding every step of it. In order to enforce that understanding, I needed to set the goal of memorizing it. When I fully understood the proof (proven by the fact I could reproduce it) I felt like I "saw" the proof at once and not as a series of steps. Today I cannot reproduce it anymore but I guess it would take me just a few minutes to memorize it again (it took me several hours back then).

So the ability to memorize a Go game is probably a good goal, in order to force yourself into understanding it.
But the mere act of memorizing a game, without understanding it, which we can compare to memorizing the order of the symbols in a mathematical proof, is not very useful.

As said, the analogy is flawed, because a professional game of Go has occasional sequences which make sense to amateur eyes, alternated with seemingly weird choices, while a mathematical proof is probably more uniform in its comprehension. Memorizing a go game without fully understanding it is therefore easier than doing the same with a math proof. And that is why amateurs sometimes go through those motions, hoping they will improve their feel for the game or subconsciously pick up a certain degree of comprehension. I don't really believe that anymore, although my romantic, lazy side still deludes me into exercises of the kind.

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Post #5 Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2019 6:24 pm 
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Glummie wrote:
Go is about efficiency and of course I am sure everyone here wants to study efficiently. Henceforth, begs the question. Which of the above is more efficient and how are you guys going on about it?


Efficiency is best achieved when you optimize for your objective. When you say that your aim is to "study efficiently", what do you mean by that? Do you mean to have as much rank increase per unit of study time as possible?

Seems silly, but my view is that defining your objective very specifically is useful if your aim is to be efficient.

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Post #6 Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2019 9:09 pm 
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I "memorize" a pro game (only the first 100 moves though) following the advice posted below. That is, until I can lay them down once out of memory (which is after roughly 5-6 replays of the same game), and move on.

viewtopic.php?p=211357#p211357

I have taken this step due to a post by Mimura Tomoyasu 9p on replaying pro games which says; once he plays a game, he tends to "remember" them without "memorizing". I thought that if I were to have a same result, I should at least repeat them so that I have remembered them. (He also recommended repeating due to the his experience of having a fresh inspiration dawn upon him after repeatedly replaying a same game.)
In addition, I have realized that I have forgotten most of the moves that I have "memorized" only few months ago (I'm in my fifties by the way), and recently have taken up spaced repetition, that is; "memorizing" the same game 3 times within a 3 month period. I will see how this will impact my improvements.


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Post #7 Posted: Sat Jan 12, 2019 12:58 am 
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I "memorized" 100 moves of 100 games in the following way:

1. During 20-30 minutes, I replay it once. Before going to the next move, if the move is not completely obvious I try to consider several options (several local responses + tenuki + leaning against another group + kikashi), so I have between 1 and 6 options. Then I click and the pro's move often turns out not to be on my list, so I try to understand at least one purpose of the move, but I don't always succeed in finding an explanation.

2. During 30-50 minutes, I replay it several times until I remember it without a single mistake. Somes moves that were obscure the first time become clearer.

3.When I go to another game, I mostly forget the preceding one, although it remains familiar.

4. Apparently it didn't help me make progress, 1 dan is not within range at all.

5. I will continue in the future to replay games, as I find that activity enjoyable, but for the moment I am back to tsumego.

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Post #8 Posted: Thu Jan 17, 2019 6:00 am 
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Years ago I did memorize 2 Shusaku vs Shuwa games.
I'm not that good at memorizing but I got it done relatively easily.
I was then like 7k.

I like the analogy with the pi proof given in a reply up. Sequences made the exercise easier you need to remember the switches.
From old memory, took me less as 10, maybe 4-5 times for each

If you have comments on the game will help too.
I have no answer on direct efficiency but it was very interesting.I am always cautious on efficiency as you can learn new things and then lose some rating because you try to apply them. In the long term it's a bit difficult to know which part of your studies did help to improve.

Where I live at the Weiqi school nearby, one of the very first homework is to memorize a Weiqi game, and these full beginner children do that relatively easily.

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Post #9 Posted: Thu Jan 17, 2019 8:39 pm 
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The heart of every game is, step-by-step, the collection of moves that 'could' be played. The record of each game is merely the skeleton - the list of moves that, step-by-step, 'were' played. I think that studying games is about trying to grasp all the alternatives and why we should prefer one over another. Memorizing games may be an enjoyable exercise. (I did it a few times when I was learning Go many years ago.) However, I think it can only take us so far in terms of improving our Go.

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Post #10 Posted: Thu Jan 17, 2019 11:07 pm 
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ez4u wrote:
The heart of every game is, step-by-step, the collection of moves that 'could' be played. The record of each game is merely the skeleton - the list of moves that, step-by-step, 'were' played. I think that studying games is about trying to grasp all the alternatives and why we should prefer one over another. Memorizing games may be an enjoyable exercise. (I did it a few times when I was learning Go many years ago.) However, I think it can only take us so far in terms of improving our Go.

Sure. Now when you memorized this skeleton, you can close your book and start the study. It's indeed a good tool and first step for that.

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Post #11 Posted: Tue May 21, 2019 8:27 am 
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I am a fan of memorizing joseki and life and death scenarios. If you try to memorize a whole pro game, you are looking at hundreds of moves. If you try to memorize a handful of 1 Dan tesuji and life and death, you still won't be close to that number. And, for example, knowing the carpenters shape or bent four in the corner will probably be more beneficial to you. I think there is no problem memorizing life and death as opposed to "solving" it. I think memorizing the shapes will help you in the future, especially if, like myself, you tend to play off of intuition rather than reading deeply.

Memorizing pro games does have its benefits. I think if you decide to go over pro games there should be a few things to look for which will help weak kyus and dan players. First off notice how pros play shape moves, and secondly notice how pros use forcing moves before responding to their opponents big moves. This goes with knowing what's bigger, knowing what is sente and gote. Just know that memorizing the games can take a lot of effort. Good luck!

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Post #12 Posted: Wed May 22, 2019 5:37 am 
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I would guess that memorizing pro games won't be much help unless you can remember your own games after you play them. Being able to replay a game from memory soon after you played it can give cues to where you need to study. Of course this must be done without using a softwear reader to replay, do it only using your memory. When you do this you will likely encounter moves that don't immediately come to you. In that case you may have made a mistake in the game with that move or played a move that you didn't really understand. This is especially effective when reviewing a game with your opponent. Unfortunately, this ability of replaying your own games from memory is associated with go strength (strong kyu or dan level?).

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Post #13 Posted: Wed May 22, 2019 7:57 am 
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Question to those who ask if or think that memorizing pro games is good. How long are you aiming for to remember the game?

I can memorize a pro game in short term memory without too much difficulty. But after a couple of days, it's gone, unless I keep repeating it. I vaguely remember the first game in the Lee-Gu jubango because I repeatedly went through it, even memorizing it at some point.

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Post #14 Posted: Thu May 23, 2019 3:35 am 
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I also forget a game after a couple of days. The point of memorizing it for a short period is that is forces you to "understand" every move. Replaying pro games several times, and slowly enough, would probably have the same effect.

(So far it doesn't seem to be improving my game much.)

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