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 Post subject: Takemiya Masaki and ... Dwyrin (?!)
Post #1 Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2019 2:04 pm 
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I recently finished catching up with Dwyrin's Basics youtube series and together with another thread at L19 about playing natural Go it jogged my memory about a series, This is Go the Natural Way, by Takemiya Masaki published in BGJ (http://www.britgo.org/bgj/bgj.html) that I skimmed through long ago.

So, am I imagining things or does it seem to others that Dwyrin is influenced, directly or indirectly, by Takemiya?

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 Post subject: Re: Takemiya Masaki and ... Dwyrin (?!)
Post #2 Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2019 2:57 pm 
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Aidoneus wrote:
I recently finished catching up with Dwyrin's Basics youtube series and together with another thread at L19 about playing natural Go it jogged my memory about a series, This is Go the Natural Way, by Takemiya Masaki published in BGJ (http://www.britgo.org/bgj/bgj.html) that I skimmed through long ago.

So, am I imagining things or does it seem to others that Dwyrin is influenced, directly or indirectly, by Takemiya?


If anything, the new bot generation has been influenced by Dwyrin. He has always rejected influence in favor of territory.

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 Post subject: Re: Takemiya Masaki and ... Dwyrin (?!)
Post #3 Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2019 3:32 pm 
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Besides emphasizing shape in his Basics lectures, Dwyrin's games seem to almost always produce a center moyo. Maybe we aren't watching the same videos?! ;-)

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 Post subject: Re: Takemiya Masaki and ... Dwyrin (?!)
Post #4 Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2019 4:11 pm 
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Magic centre points do tend to appear (even if you don't try to make them) when you are playing an even game against someone 10 stones weaker than you...


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 Post subject: Re: Takemiya Masaki and ... Dwyrin (?!)
Post #5 Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2019 4:52 pm 
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Uberdude wrote:
Magic centre points do tend to appear (even if you don't try to make them) when you are playing an even game against someone 10 stones weaker than you...


Yes, an excellent point. Still, Dwyrin has produced a lot of videos on moyos. Here are just a few examples:

Let's build a moyo: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XL_aq3q84zE

Center development: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QSORKXnjHKY

Middle = win: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w6WcTveW4yI

More middle strats: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n4b3HDVDt-4

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 Post subject: Re: Takemiya Masaki and ... Dwyrin (?!)
Post #6 Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2019 5:25 pm 
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Aidoneus wrote:
Besides emphasizing shape in his Basics lectures, Dwyrin's games seem to almost always produce a center moyo. Maybe we aren't watching the same videos?! ;-)


I just watched the first two in the series. In 1 he kills a group in the centre, in 2 the opponent follows a centre moyo strategy.
Overall, the pattern seems to be "I'll play just basic enough to pretend I'm teaching you something, but when victory is at risk, I'll switch to competitive mode".

I learnt a few things from his series against players of his strength, where he clearly went for "natural territory", safe play, no fighting, keep the whole board in mind, don't do stupid things ... Quite educational (even if probably delusionary because he chooses what to upload).

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 Post subject: Re: Takemiya Masaki and ... Dwyrin (?!)
Post #7 Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2019 6:20 pm 
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Knotwilg wrote:
...(even if probably delusionary because he chooses what to upload).

Sorry Knotwilg but I couldn't resist. :bow:
You mean the same way you choose what to record in you study journal?

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 Post subject: Re: Takemiya Masaki and ... Dwyrin (?!)
Post #8 Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2019 8:18 pm 
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Knotwilg wrote:
Aidoneus wrote:
Besides emphasizing shape in his Basics lectures, Dwyrin's games seem to almost always produce a center moyo. Maybe we aren't watching the same videos?! ;-)


I just watched the first two in the series. In 1 he kills a group in the centre, in 2 the opponent follows a centre moyo strategy.
Overall, the pattern seems to be "I'll play just basic enough to pretend I'm teaching you something, but when victory is at risk, I'll switch to competitive mode".

I learnt a few things from his series against players of his strength, where he clearly went for "natural territory", safe play, no fighting, keep the whole board in mind, don't do stupid things ... Quite educational (even if probably delusionary because he chooses what to upload).


First, he definitely has been doing more moyo videos in the Basic series for the last couple months. I believe by request. Second, of course he chooses games for educational value...and it must be easier to demonstrate basic principles against weaker players. In fact, he has made a point of winning games with just solid play and avoiding attacks while sandbagging, though he does point out how it could be done. And third, he also streams live games every week against 4-7 dan players. The Basic series might be to low for you, but I feel like I have learned a lot from watching them.

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 Post subject: Re: Takemiya Masaki and ... Dwyrin (?!)
Post #9 Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2019 2:52 am 
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ez4u wrote:
Knotwilg wrote:
...(even if probably delusionary because he chooses what to upload).

Sorry Knotwilg but I couldn't resist. :bow:
You mean the same way you choose what to record in you study journal?


You mean I only upload victories in my study journal?
If that is so, it's definitely subconscious.
I'll make sure to add a loss next time.

I think my journal has a different purpose: it's more of an occasional report on things I'm trying out and what I'm learning from it. Dwyrin is making a point: play basic and you will win.

Anyway there's no comparison: he's much stronger and he's making some sort of career out of his playing/teaching.
But ok, point taken :)

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 Post subject: Re: Takemiya Masaki and ... Dwyrin (?!)
Post #10 Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2019 8:27 am 
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Knotwilg wrote:
I just watched the first two in the series. In 1 he kills a group in the centre, in 2 the opponent follows a centre moyo strategy.
Overall, the pattern seems to be "I'll play just basic enough to pretend I'm teaching you something, but when victory is at risk, I'll switch to competitive mode".


The first few videos are probably not representative because not surprisingly, he learned as he went and changed his approach accordingly. I don't remember the first few videos well, but usually, he tries to be clear about when he's playing "basically" and when he diverges. And it is quite entertaining to watch him deliberate about whether to kill a group using "non-basic" moves or to let it live. He also tries to avoid strategies that require even a modest level of reading, and he does lose on occasion. At the extreme, he even has a few videos recently where he tries to "only play gote moves." (Probably best described as him playing an EXTREMELY passive style.)

Like any teacher, it is impossible for him to divorce himself completely from his understanding of the game. But I think he honestly tries to show kyu players that a few fundamentals and good direction of play can take you quite far. Personally, I've learned quite a bit about direction of play from his videos.

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 Post subject: Re: Takemiya Masaki and ... Dwyrin (?!)
Post #11 Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2019 8:34 am 
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I would imagine that the chances are quite high that Dwyrin has read something about Takemiya, and therefore that he may use some of the 'natural' terminology. You could just ask him about that?

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 Post subject: Re: Takemiya Masaki and ... Dwyrin (?!)
Post #12 Posted: Tue Mar 12, 2019 2:07 am 
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Having watched the "basic series" by Dwyrin and adopting this style of play in my games, I must retract and admit he does a great job. There's a lot to learn there. I'm cautious but I'm inclined to say I have gained a rank from his teachings in the basic series. In particular - and touching on lessons learnt from Lizzie - attacking for profit, not to kill, is a major improvement to my game. Steadily moving on in the game, constantly looking for "where's the profit", has proven to be an effective modification of style.


This post by Knotwilg was liked by 3 people: BlindGroup, dfan, Tapani
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