had to happen... now what are the LZ crowd gonna do about this?!

it's all Geek to me, but i'd love to see C2's move that nearly knocked Elf off her perch - from the authors' remarks about ladders, it looks like Elf walked under one and nearly paid the price, but made a stunning recovery.

At this moment in time, it looks like ELF v.2 (05dbca15) is losing solidly against the strongest LZ network. The match is not over, of course:

Presumably it was this 4th game, which we talked about before (black 0.47875 is very close to the near -0.5 of graph):

In previous matches Elf has lost more of the early games because it tends to lose games to ladder blunders which are short games, but does relatively better at games which go to counting and they take longer.

proof, as if any were needed, that 43 is the Meaning of Life

a study group type question, if i may (perhaps best answered over there): that joseki in the bottom right - i vaguely remember St Michael talking about it onetime, but can't remember what he said or where he said it; it looks wierd to me, for what's the point in jumping with keima if white's only going to butt heads against it and black more or less has to play where she would have done anyway with the more (to me, at least) natural-looking press instead? i suppose there must be some advantage to the keima that doesn't become obvious until several hundred moves later...

What happened in these two games?

W: ELF V2
B: LeelaZero #204

http://zero.sjeng.org/viewmatch/c327835 ... viewer=wgo
http://zero.sjeng.org/viewmatch/7b181c4 ... viewer=wgo

I hope I don't get in trouble for answering in the wrong place:

- I believe the keima increases black's ability to take sente. Which seems to be a thing now.
- I also don't think it is a given that white is going to butt heads. I've seen O-02 played as well, and the variations can get complicated.

Are there bad parameters? (LZ test game files only seem to show params for one colour, or do we assume both colours have the same parameters expcet for network file?) Looks like those training games where first x moves have chance to be random. Also malicious/modified/badly-configured clients is a possibility, it's been a cause for concern on the LZ project for a while.

I agree that it was probably due to client misconfigurations. Taking these two games out, ELF v2 vs. LZ #204 was a measly 34-60, or 36.17% games won. Not great, at least in this round of experiments.

All match games in the round can be viewed at http://zero.sjeng.org/match-games/5c63e ... 029e7a2390.

Not so surprising give it is equal visits so the 40-block LZ will likely use more than twice the time as 20-block Elfv2. Here is a test match with the same equal visits setup of LZ 200 vs Elf v1, Elfv1 won 33.5% then.

https://github.com/leela-zero/leela-zero/issues/2212. A Chinese user @atoutw is doing an 120 sec a move test on 2080Ti Elfv2 vs LZ 204.

https://cloudygo.com/ringmaster/minigo- ... lf.report/ A minigo v15 (20 block) vs elf v2 test match on 3200 visits

Can anyone confirm that ELF can correctly read ladders now (perhaps with the right number of playouts or visits)? I saw ELF v2 still making questionable ladder moves in a couple of games against LZ #204.

I was so hoping to see the machine play a double ladder breaker some day.

LZ too still has troubles with ladders, though is better than Elf. Here's a ladder fail of LZ 198: forum/viewtopic.php?p=240305#p240305. I'll give it a try with LZ 204 and 50k+ playouts later.

The latest-

ELF v2 ladder fail: http://zero.sjeng.org/viewmatch/49314be ... viewer=wgo

LZ #204 ladder fail: http://zero.sjeng.org/viewmatch/12f4fa2 ... viewer=wgo

Minigo v16-1144 ladder fail: http://zero.sjeng.org/viewmatch/d8696d1 ... viewer=wgo

Parameters are -p 0 -v 1600 -r 5 -m 0 -t 1 -d --noponder.

The paper explicitly mentions that it still has trouble with ladders.

Thanks dfan! I found the part that you mentioned in the paper:

Just to expand on the above info (without me understanding a word of all that AI blurb ) …

Qucheng Gong in the Facebook Group “Go (Baduk, Weiqi) Players on Facebook”:

(Emphasis added by me)

_________________
“The only difference between me and a madman is that I’m not mad.” — Salvador Dali ★ Play a slooooow correspondence game with me on OGS?

There is indeed a lot more than just that first paper!

- Home page: https://facebook.ai/developers/tools/elf-opengo
- Blog post: https://ai.facebook.com/blog/open-sourc ... -research/
- Online explorer of Elf's view on mistakes, winrate drops etc on large corpus of pro games from history from GoGoD, pick a player, metric, see pretty graphs (note it uses GoGoD's names so Lee Changho is Yi Ch'ang-ho): https://dl.fbaipublicfiles.com/elfopeng ... index.html
- Readme about their pro game analysis: https://dl.fbaipublicfiles.com/elfopeng ... sis/README
- Containing this link to a 3 GB gzip of Elf's analysis of 100k pro games from GoGoD! (Hope JF is ok with this) Big caveat that it assumes 7.5 komi so win% will be off for older games, how valid move suggestions will be is debatable: https://dl.fbaipublicfiles.com/elfopeng ... _sgfs.gzip
- Windows binary (1.3GB!) to play against the real Elf OpenGo rather than LZ converted weights, we can finally see if real Elf suffers from same lack of exploration: https://dl.fbaipublicfiles.com/elfopeng ... ngo_v2.zip

not with me we need a little light relief with all this heavy stuff about weights and whatnot that makes my brain hurt

ah, yes, tx, that's what St Mike was saying.

it's always been a thing - sente is like your car keys, lose it and you have to walk back with a heavy load on your back

yes, yes, it's all coming back to me now, except for one thing: it's O2 (or, even better, o2) - you and Billy boy keep your unnecessary Courier Old monotype dashes and leading zeros to yourselves! Before we know it, you will be insisting that all English words are 8 bits long!! Is this what they mean by New World Order?! Big Brother = Bill?!!! omg....

[edit] just had a look at the moves past 43 - it's an ugly ugly game, black seems to be playing suboptimal moves to start kos wherever he can, and some of white's moves look downright simple-minded - so how come they can beat me with one eye closed standing on one leg balancing a bucket of water on their heads?

43? 42!