Having just been pondering on this idea, it seems that go, like language, sits between sound and vision.jlt wrote:It's hard to say if go knowledge is more "textlike" or "imagelike". It's imagelike because we use visual memory to remember shapes, josekis, etc. but it's textlike because we need to pay attention to every detail. So for the moment we don't know if all of LZ157's knowledge can fit into a human brain, maybe, maybe not.
What does "natural" mean in go?
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Elom
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Re: What does "natural" mean in go?
On Go proverbs:
"A fine Gotation is a diamond in the hand of a dan of wit and a pebble in the hand of a kyu" —Joseph Raux misquoted.
"A fine Gotation is a diamond in the hand of a dan of wit and a pebble in the hand of a kyu" —Joseph Raux misquoted.
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dangomango
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Re: What does "natural" mean in go?
well probing corner enclosures was "natural"
now it becomes "natural" to attach to non enclosed corners
there are logic/reasoning behind those AI moves...but it seems it becomes to complicated for amateurs to fully understand and utilize in our strategies
like 3-3 invasion immediately, the logic is trying to grab territory in sente and can easily reduce the influence gained by opponent's wall.....and then a counter to this was invented by tenuki in sente vs you get 3-3 + territory in gote
then it becomes joseki because it seems to be even for both sides
then all kinds of craziness like this happens again and again...
any unnatural circumstances can become natural once you repeat something again and again
it takes time to adapt
but anyhow, im pretty sure old school players will stick to the old school style unless they are willing to change and learn
younger ppl(children especially) will adapt to new joseki/fuseki/style much more easily that it will become "natural
now it becomes "natural" to attach to non enclosed corners
there are logic/reasoning behind those AI moves...but it seems it becomes to complicated for amateurs to fully understand and utilize in our strategies
like 3-3 invasion immediately, the logic is trying to grab territory in sente and can easily reduce the influence gained by opponent's wall.....and then a counter to this was invented by tenuki in sente vs you get 3-3 + territory in gote
then it becomes joseki because it seems to be even for both sides
then all kinds of craziness like this happens again and again...
any unnatural circumstances can become natural once you repeat something again and again
it takes time to adapt
but anyhow, im pretty sure old school players will stick to the old school style unless they are willing to change and learn
younger ppl(children especially) will adapt to new joseki/fuseki/style much more easily that it will become "natural
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golem7
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Re: What does "natural" mean in go?
I think the term "natural" is to be understood in the context of instinct and conditioning and can have as many different meanings as there are go players on the planet. So when Takemiya uses it, it is something completely different from when I or anyone on this forum uses it to describe a move, because it is inherently connected to our past experience.
I think there is a relation to strength in the sense that the more you have studied the game, the more you will have exchanged information with others, and the more aligned your instinct becomes to the consensus of the overall (stronger) go population. But as AI is teaching us, established conventions/instincts might not necessarily be superior, but could be like a local (or maybe temporal) optimum which hasn't been questioned out of complacency for a long time.
Reversely, I was just reminded some time ago what "unnatural" feels like as I felt my toenails curling around when watching 2 DDKs duke it out next to me in a bar.
The criticism of blindly imitating pro's/AI's moves always felt invalid to me. Any learning process starts with imitation, understanding only comes later. This will always be true IMHO and is no cause for concern.
However it's hard to say what that means for the future. Will we accept AI as a guide/teacher for best play? Well, sure seems like it, heck I do it myself and gladly to boot. I think my direction of play has improved markedly since reviewing with Leela. I think the go population in general has become stronger in the last few years while digesting the new ideas and will still become much stronger. Maybe we don't feel it as much because we improve all together so the relation stays the same.
As a final thought: even in case of the most "boring" outcome in that we accept AI's instincts as a measure for move quality in the future and adapt to that standard, it will still mean a big increase in human go strength (I think Leela is about mid-dan strength without reading at all!). After that, it all comes down to reading anyway which is and always has been the single biggest indicator of playing strength. Go has infinite variations after all so no matter what we will continue to encounter new positions, new challenges and will have to find our own way with our own strength.
I think there is a relation to strength in the sense that the more you have studied the game, the more you will have exchanged information with others, and the more aligned your instinct becomes to the consensus of the overall (stronger) go population. But as AI is teaching us, established conventions/instincts might not necessarily be superior, but could be like a local (or maybe temporal) optimum which hasn't been questioned out of complacency for a long time.
Reversely, I was just reminded some time ago what "unnatural" feels like as I felt my toenails curling around when watching 2 DDKs duke it out next to me in a bar.
The criticism of blindly imitating pro's/AI's moves always felt invalid to me. Any learning process starts with imitation, understanding only comes later. This will always be true IMHO and is no cause for concern.
However it's hard to say what that means for the future. Will we accept AI as a guide/teacher for best play? Well, sure seems like it, heck I do it myself and gladly to boot. I think my direction of play has improved markedly since reviewing with Leela. I think the go population in general has become stronger in the last few years while digesting the new ideas and will still become much stronger. Maybe we don't feel it as much because we improve all together so the relation stays the same.
As a final thought: even in case of the most "boring" outcome in that we accept AI's instincts as a measure for move quality in the future and adapt to that standard, it will still mean a big increase in human go strength (I think Leela is about mid-dan strength without reading at all!). After that, it all comes down to reading anyway which is and always has been the single biggest indicator of playing strength. Go has infinite variations after all so no matter what we will continue to encounter new positions, new challenges and will have to find our own way with our own strength.
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Knotwilg
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Re: What does "natural" mean in go?
I have an example:
I was White in this game. Black has just reinforced his upper right corner.
In this position, there is a very natural move for me to play, one that I have acquired by book study and play, but I have learnt from studying with Leela it is not a good move.
Instead, LZ suggests another move (and one other close by) which gives a 65% advantage. My move is not considered, though the advantage only drops to 62% if I play it. Anyway, this very natural move is not in LZ's repertoire, for reasons I now understand conceptually but it still feels awkward.
Can you guess my "natural move" and Lizzie's preference?
In this position, there is a very natural move for me to play, one that I have acquired by book study and play, but I have learnt from studying with Leela it is not a good move.
Instead, LZ suggests another move (and one other close by) which gives a 65% advantage. My move is not considered, though the advantage only drops to 62% if I play it. Anyway, this very natural move is not in LZ's repertoire, for reasons I now understand conceptually but it still feels awkward.
Can you guess my "natural move" and Lizzie's preference?
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jlt
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Re: What does "natural" mean in go?
What is natural for a dan player or for LeelaZero is often different than what is natural for me, but I'll try anyway.
I don't see any natural local good response to P18 so I would tenuki.
"a" is a standard shape move which attacks the triangled stone, thanks to the C14-D13 stones. If Blacks answers with B7, this will help to get white stones in the center and reduce Black's moyo.
Or maybe cap at "b" to reduce Black's moyo, and if White gets stronger in the center, the F17 stones could be attacked later.
I don't see any natural local good response to P18 so I would tenuki.
"a" is a standard shape move which attacks the triangled stone, thanks to the C14-D13 stones. If Blacks answers with B7, this will help to get white stones in the center and reduce Black's moyo.
Or maybe cap at "b" to reduce Black's moyo, and if White gets stronger in the center, the F17 stones could be attacked later.
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Uberdude
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Re: What does "natural" mean in go?
No one move strikes me as particularly obvious or natural here. If white's previous move was the o13 jump, expecting/hoping for black to answer at q/p12 but instead black tneukid then it could be natural to play q12, but with black strong on both sides it's not so severe and black could ignore again or even cut it. e18/f18 looks quite hot to me, as black I'd quite like to get in some kikashi there so j17 can build a little eyespace, so as white f18 is big, though with open at j17 not overly so. k15 is also a nice point, but is it a tad overconcentrated; so maybe k13?. Other points to consider are c8 (but does it work with white c14 rather than c13?), k2 is a large endgame for later, could reduce the moyo in m7 vicinity (but with k2 it's not so big), also q2 to think about. Or there's ideas like e9 or e11 or d11 erasing that left group from above and preparing stones to attack the top middle weak black group. Given Knotwilg's description I expected some obvious book move with few alternatives but I don't see it.
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Bill Spight
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Re: What does "natural" mean in go?
in reply.
, which is AlphaGo/Go Seigen style (the high shoulder hit)?The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
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Knotwilg
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Re: What does "natural" mean in go?
I'll hide my answer for those who want to think about it some more, but for dfan, jlt, bill and uberdude:
immediately is the more passive version of the same idea. Uberdude called it "a nice point but a tad overconcentrated" - seems like his intuition is well developed, whether or not by studying with LZ.
splits and Black has to make life with 
and 
, strengthening White's corner and not affecting the top group, which had strengthened herself to start with. Next White' attack at 
is now much more purposeful.-
Bill Spight
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Re: What does "natural" mean in go?
FWIW:
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
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Knotwilg
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at which point White can activate the reduction and build influence towards the running group again.