Televised 2010 EGF AGM

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John Fairbairn
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Re: Televised 2010 EGF AGM

Post by John Fairbairn »

I can't find the British Go Association proposal anywhere


I may have missed some important step, and the proposal may well have been a good one - it did at least do rather better than Britain in the Eurovision Song Contest. But at present I feel something has gone awry.

Just before the European Go Congress, a very brief discussion flared up in the BGA's own forum, gotalk. The idea was to get some members' views for British input into the European AGM, and not just on this topic. There was very, very little interest shown. However, just before his departure, our European rep, Geoff Kaniuk, offered a list of his own views on a wide range of matters and said that this was how he intended to vote if it was left up to him. There was a smattering of replies to that, with some disagreements. Presumably Geoff took note of these comments, and also of instructions from the BGA Council which we were not privy to. It may usefully be added that Geoff is very experienced in go politics, tournament organisation and go rules, and has tons of common sense. He was, I'd say, an ideal representative, and I'd certainly have no qualms about him representing me.

Nevertheless, a couple of things disturb me about the process.

One is that very, very few Brits took an interest in the debate, and very, very few attended the congress (the number of Brits attending also seems to be on the decline). There is also no Brit currently involved in the European championship. I do wonder, therefore, if some weight should have been taken away from the British proposal for that reason. (That's a theoretical objection - I have no problems with the actual proposal.)

The other, which applies also to some other countries and to some other items on the agenda, is that too many items are being put to the vote without prior vetting or other groundwork. And the ambush tactics are allowed to work! Surely any major proposal should be sent out to other member countries some weeks or months before the AGM, not necessarily for discussion (i.e. extra work for the proposer) but to give other people time to mull it over, and so make a final vote more informed. As I understand it from the outside, this does indeed happen for some proposals - so why not for all? Is it poor chairmanship, different ways or traditions of doing council business in various countries, language problems, Eurovision type country cliques, or what?
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Re: Televised 2010 EGF AGM

Post by henric »

Diabolic wrote:(...)
I can't find the British Go Association proposal anywhere (either here or other sites that had the proposals), did they select a proposal that was not in the given out before the meeting?


Yes :-)

From a formal point of view this was rather anticonstitutional, but in the previous message I tried to explain how it came about. And although it was UK that made the proposal at the AGM, the initiative was really russian this time (at the pre-AGM meeting).

Diabolic wrote:I think Israel is at least a member of EGF if not actually European country. If this years result were used with next year system, would Ali Jabarin be able to take part in the last three round cup?


Sure he would.

DrStraw wrote:I cannot believe that the AGM for an amateur association lasted longer than many professional games!


It started at 19.00 and ended at 2.15. It's the longest one I've been to.

Diabolic wrote:Was it the actual Russian delegate or one of the other Russian members representing countries that didn't have a representative in place.


It was the Russian delegate, vice president of the Russian Go Federation.

Diabolic wrote:
I heard rumors that Russian members had 5 votes in the meeting (this information is secondhand so I can't be sure if it is true, the 1st recording is not perfect). If a member of EGF can't send it's own representative to a AGM meeting which is held in the biggest and most important event in the whole Europe, I think that country should not have any voting rights.


It's correct that many countries were represented by russians, at least Armenia, Azerbaijan, Croatia, plus a couple of more. The EGF constitution does not allow proxy votes, but in practice this is circumvented by saying that the person is a member of the country's go federation, even if not a citizen of that country. The constitution commission suggested either removing the ban on proxy votes or requiring citizenship, but the change has not been implemented. It is not easy to modify the EGF constitution, given the severe requirements on qualified majority.

best regards,
Henric
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Re: Televised 2010 EGF AGM

Post by willemien »

It started at 19.00 and ended at 2.15. It's the longest one I've been to.


Can you tell me (an i guess also others ) what is decided (if anything on the other points on the agenda?


Agenda

1. Opening of the meeting

2. Verifying presence and voting rights

3. Accepting the agenda

4. International Matters:
a. Presentations from other International bodies
b. Appointment of replacement IGF Director
c. Report from IGF Directors
(WMSG 2012, International Referees, IGF membership)
d. Cooperation with EGCC
(Annual Reports publication (CZ), Appointment of Supervisory Board reps)

5. Acceptance of previous year's AGM minutes

6. Admission of new members (Latvia) and updates from candidates (Georgia)

7. Reports of the President, Secretary, Treasurer

8. Report of the Auditors for 2008-09 and 2009-10

9. Reports of chairmen of existing Commissions
a. Rules (adoption of International Rules?)
b. Ratings
c. Youth
d. Strong Players

10. Election of Executive officers and auditors
a. The nominations for executive (all proposed by CZ, DE, PL, SK):
Martin Stiassny for EGF President
Tony Atkins for EGF Secretary
Hans Kostka for EGF Treasurer
Jana Hricova for EGF Vice-President
Leszek Soldan for EGF Vice-President
Matti Siivola for EGF officer
Ales Cieply for EGF officer
b. Auditors:
Arnaud Knippel (?), Thilo Burkhardt (?)

11. Budgets
a. Approval of countries applying for reduction in 2010
b. Proposal to revert minimum membership fee to 50 euro (IE)
c. Proposal to change EGF accounting year to calendar year from Jan 2011
d. Presentation for Comment of Budgets 2010 and 2011
e. Proposal to report accounts three months before AGM (CZ)

12. Appointment of Commissions

13. European Go Congresses
a. Financial reports from past tournaments (CZ)
b. Comments on 2010: Tampere, Finland
c. Progress report on 2011: France
d. Progress report on 2012: Germany
e. Progress report on 2013: Poland
f. Selection of hosts for 2014: Russia and ?
g. Expressions of interest in later years (CZ + ?)

14. European Tournament Calendar - Selection of hosts
a. Youth Championship 2012 ?
b. Student Championship 2012 Russia?
c. Pair Go 2011 Turkey? and 2012 ?
d. Women's Championship 2012 ?
e. Team Championship 2011 Spain/Russia? and 2012 ?

15. European Championship System Proposals

16. Proposals from Members
a. Prizes at EGC (RO and RU)
b. European Professionals at EGC (RO)
c. Rating System only open for national Go association members (CZ)
d. President to report quarterly (CZ)
e. Top Players to vote at EGF AGM (RU)
f. World Cup selections (RU)
g. New Champions League (RO)
h. Situation, location and staff of EGCC (RO)

17. Any other business
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Re: Televised 2010 EGF AGM

Post by breakfast »

henric wrote:It's correct that many countries were represented by russians, at least Armenia, Azerbaijan, Croatia, plus a couple of more. The EGF constitution does not allow proxy votes, but in practice this is circumvented by saying that the person is a member of the country's go federation, even if not a citizen of that country. The constitution commission suggested either removing the ban on proxy votes or requiring citizenship, but the change has not been implemented. It is not easy to modify the EGF constitution, given the severe requirements on qualified majority.
henric


Azerbaijan representative was from Azerbaijan this time, but you forgot to mention Belorussia and Switzerland.

I also think that it's a bad tradition, but for me it was the only way to vote.
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Re: Televised 2010 EGF AGM

Post by henric »

willemien wrote:
It started at 19.00 and ended at 2.15. It's the longest one I've been to.


Can you tell me (an i guess also others ) what is decided (if anything on the other points on the agenda?


Ok, this is what I recall:


b. Appointment of replacement IGF Director

Martin Finke was elected, with the main task to look after the 2012 World Mind Sports games, which will probably take place in Manchester.

d. Cooperation with EGCC
(Annual Reports publication (CZ), Appointment of Supervisory Board reps)

It's a little bit unclear what happened here, in the sense that it's not clear how the members of the board should be appointed. At any rate, Catalin Taranu and M. Papazoglou (FR) were elected. The two positions are intended for representing EGF members. I think it is then important that the AGM should elect the representatives. That way they can help the EGF members to feel confident that the EGCC is managed correctly and responsably. If the supervisory board is just appointing itself there is the risk of a lack of confidence. I think this is precisely what has happened. But the meeting certainly approved of the two new board members. In particular Catalin seems to have many ideas on what the EGCC should do, so he will probably have a vitalizing effect.

6. Admission of new members (Latvia) and updates from candidates (Georgia)

Latvia was accepted as member, on condition that they set up selection procedures and procedures for handling internal conflicts (as required of new members by the EGF constitution)


10. Election of Executive officers and auditors

The Executive was re-elected by default.

b. Auditors:
Arnaud Knippel (?), Thilo Burkhardt (?)

A new auditor was elected, I don't recall her name, sorry.


b. Proposal to revert minimum membership fee to 50 euro (IE)

Proposal rejected.

c. Proposal to change EGF accounting year to calendar year from Jan 2011

Proposal approved.

12. Appointment of Commissions

As I understand it, it was decided that the Executive should start up the Strong Players commission somehow.

f. Selection of hosts for 2014: Russia and ?

Romania chosen, probably in Sibiu, see separate thread.

a. Youth Championship 2012 ?

Prague (?)

b. Student Championship 2012 Russia?

Confirmed.

c. Pair Go 2011 Turkey? and 2012 ?

Turkey 2011 confirmed, probably in Istanbul.

d. Women's Championship 2012 ?

Romania selected (?)

e. Team Championship 2011 Spain/Russia? and 2012 ?

Not applicable, the Team Championship format will be changed to qualifications on internet, followed by face to face finals during EGC.

15. European Championship System Proposals

Se separate thread. Knock out among top 8 europeans after round 7, or possibly different number of rounds.

16. Proposals from Members
a. Prizes at EGC (RO and RU)

Nothing decided.

b. European Professionals at EGC (RO)

Nothing decided.

c. Rating System only open for national Go association members (CZ)

Proposal withdrawn.

d. President to report quarterly (CZ)

Nothing decided.

e. Top Players to vote at EGF AGM (RU)

Rejected.

f. World Cup selections (RU)

Not ure if anything was decided, maybe accepted?

g. New Champions League (RO)

Would be welcome if someone organizes it.

h. Situation, location and staff of EGCC (RO)

Discussion. Nothing decided.

cheers,
H.
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Re: Televised 2010 EGF AGM

Post by richardamullens »

willemien wrote:
It started at 19.00 and ended at 2.15. It's the longest one I've been to.


Can you tell me (and i guess also others ) what is decided (if anything on the other points on the agenda?


Henric has provided useful answers to your question, but I urge you to fix the sound on your computer and watch the video.

There is much in the meeting that is not in the agenda. For instance:

China to provide money for a woman's championship with a monetary prize (and also some cash even for those who get knocked out in the first round).

There was a presentation by a Korean. It seems there are 3 Korean professionals (living ?) in Romania and there will be money made available (can't remember what for).

No more money for travel to World amateur ? events - but there will be more money to make them better.

A French representative provided details of next years EGC in Bordeaux - I think he projected 900-1100 entries. They are hopeful that the tea company will again provide sponsorship.

It seems that prices in Cologne are very high, so the 2012 venue will be outside the town (on the way to Bonn - on the Rhine) there was information about accommodation, the venue etc.

Suvi said that had the Finnish organisation been required to guarantee a certain percentage of the registration fees ? as prizes, they would not have felt able to organise the congress.

There was a long discussion about the European Go centre in Amstelveen. Catalin suggested that the Go centre was doing very little to promote go - and it seems that all the money goes on maintaining the building and paying the (reduced) staff.

Catalin complained that there had been only one weeks notice of a team tournament to be held after the congress in Leksand. Romania won it last year but felt unable to attend as they had already purchased return tickets.

There was agreement that when it comes to providing lectures at EGCs, Europeans over EGF rating 2600 should also be encouraged (with money !) to do this.

The strong players don't agree on anything (this is my view).

Briefly you see a person pouring out the special tea provided by the sponsor - and some people drank it.


And much more ...

I would like to summarise the meeting - but that would mean watching the 6.5 hours of video all over again ... I think that someone needs to record the events in the video and at what times they took place. This would be much more useful than just minutes. I don't know if it is possible to make a link to a point in a video - it would be useful.
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Re: Televised 2010 EGF AGM

Post by henric »

richardamullens wrote:Catalin complained that there had been only one weeks notice of a team tournament to be held after the congress in Leksand. Romania won it last year but felt unable to attend as they had already purchased return tickets.


This is not exactly right.
The team tournament is the European Team Chamionship, end of next week:
http://leksand-open.eu/ .
The place and date for it have in principle been announced a long time ago, but unfortunately the details and online registration came up very late. Catalins complaint was about the Executive having decided that the Team Championship will be used for qualification for the new international team event in fall 2011, where Europe will be allowed to send one or two teams.

cheers,
H.
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