invasion after attach joseki
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perceval
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invasion after attach joseki
i encountered this pattern a couple time: as W i play the kick because the B stone is 2 spaces away from the approach stone, and later in the game there is a san san invasion and i usually have problem against it.
What are the normal results? i guess the normal move is a to cut , but then this is the 'wrong' direction to kill the invasion (ie without the white pillar i would block the other way at b to kill)
c is more elgant cut, but again, B get the corner and i fell my wall is undermined by the B group underneath
So is the normal result that Black can indeed invade an live ? or is there a killing for White ?
Usually i play a or c and B live in the corner and the influence i get is negated by the Black groupe to the right
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is.
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Harleqin
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Re: invasion after attach joseki
It is normal that Black can live. He will damage his outside group, though, so this is always a timing issue.
The meaning of the kick is not to prevent the corner invasion, but to prevent the slide, which would comfortably enlarge the base of the side group.
The meaning of the kick is not to prevent the corner invasion, but to prevent the slide, which would comfortably enlarge the base of the side group.
A good system naturally covers all corner cases without further effort.
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topazg
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Re: invasion after attach joseki
Some common sequences:
Don't underestimate the value of preventing it completely with this, it's really quite big gote, especially if the group on the right isn't settled:
Don't underestimate the value of preventing it completely with this, it's really quite big gote, especially if the group on the right isn't settled:
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SpongeBob
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Re: invasion after attach joseki
topazg wrote:Don't underestimate the value of preventing it completely with this, it's really quite big gote, especially if the group on the right isn't settled:
I think you can also prevent the invasion in sente, means you do not have to play 3 to prevent the invasion:
Stay out of my territory! (W. White, aka Heisenberg)
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topazg
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Re: invasion after attach joseki
SpongeBob wrote:I think you can also prevent the invasion in sente, means you do not have to play 3 to prevent the invasion
It's quite tricky, because the following is alive (EDIT: No it's not - see below)
EDIT: This diagram is nonsense, White can block with
at 
quite ok. It does give Black a capture in sente though (see below), so I still wouldn't play 
without the connection 
, then Black cuts for a picnic ko, else it is sente for Black and leaves a dangerous peep at "a" - which in turn makes Black at "b" big and sente.I tend to only play
if I'm making Black heavy and attackable, else I would probably descend 
Further addendum: Of course, if
isn't making Black heavy, it may well not be sente whether it's a hane or descent anyway.-
Loons
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Re: invasion after attach joseki
Hang on, you suggest this one if the group on the right isn't settled ? I thought if the group on the right isn't settled, you would want to avoid playing this - because ...
is too good if the stones on the right aren't settled.
The first diagram seems like it's likely to help the black stones settle.
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topazg
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Re: invasion after attach joseki
Loons wrote:is too good if the stones on the right aren't settled.
The first diagram seems like it's likely to help the black stones settle.
I'm not sure if I follow. In the case of the descent, Black looks alive in the corner. That's a big sacrifice of White's. In the first diagram White leaves some very severe aji against the Black group because of moves like the clamp, and the corner is safe and settled. Sure, Black may protect his group, but that's fine, because White fixes a very big corner and retains sente.
[edit]Ah, you mean playing the descent instead to prevent Black from playing the 3-3 in the first place? Sure, I said that's probably what I'd play if I wasn't making Black heavy and attackable - for example to create an open skirt for good endgame whilst picking up the corner. However, it's never going to be sente, so its timing changes a lot.
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topazg
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Re: invasion after attach joseki
Having said all this, please bear in mind my rank - I'm no professional
That said, I decided to look up the pattern on dailyjoseki. The descent is never played, the hane played to settle (though this is a rare move to be played), and after Black blocks (22 out of 22 games had Black block!) White connects 21 out of the 22 times (the other being tenuki).
So it looks like a rare situation to choose to settle it, and hane and connect are indeed normal if that's what White chooses to do
Also, my kosumi is never played:
That said, I decided to look up the pattern on dailyjoseki. The descent is never played, the hane played to settle (though this is a rare move to be played), and after Black blocks (22 out of 22 games had Black block!) White connects 21 out of the 22 times (the other being tenuki).
So it looks like a rare situation to choose to settle it, and hane and connect are indeed normal if that's what White chooses to do
Also, my kosumi is never played:
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topazg
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Re: invasion after attach joseki
Interestingly, settling this way is much more common if O16 is low at O17 (12% of the time this is the next local move, instead of 2%), and again in all 44 games (on DailyJoseki) Black blocks, and 42 of those White connects (the other 2 are tenuki).
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Kirby
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Re: invasion after attach joseki
topazg wrote:Loons wrote:is too good if the stones on the right aren't settled.
The first diagram seems like it's likely to help the black stones settle.
I'm not sure if I follow. In the case of the descent, Black looks alive in the corner. That's a big sacrifice of White's. In the first diagram White leaves some very severe aji against the Black group because of moves like the clamp, and the corner is safe and settled. Sure, Black may protect his group, but that's fine, because White fixes a very big corner and retains sente.
[edit]Ah, you mean playing the descent instead to prevent Black from playing the 3-3 in the first place? Sure, I said that's probably what I'd play if I wasn't making Black heavy and attackable - for example to create an open skirt for good endgame whilst picking up the corner. However, it's never going to be sente, so its timing changes a lot.
I could be mistaken either on Loons's intent, or on whether he is correct or not, but my impression was that Loons was saying that the hane in the first diagram that was given to settle might not be desirable because it can help black's group a bit.
I agree that there is some aji left in the black group after the sequence that starts with the hane to settle, but I think that Loons was saying that it is often fine to let white invade at the 3-3. That's because, if you select the "decent option" to defend against it, while white lives in the corner, the decent option itself is good for attacking the black stones.
I think that's what Loons was saying, at least. From my perspective, it might depend on what's lower on the board as to whether the stones are attackable. If the stones are not attackable, then you can select one of the other josekis for dealing with the 3-3, as you've already shown.
So, for example, if there are black stones below the white ones, the decent might be a good response:
White could have, instead, tried to prevent the invasion with the hane, but perhaps it is possible that it's a little bit aji keshi:
It is hard for me to say for sure, but perhaps it is possible that the first diagram puts more pressure on black.
There's also the added bonus that, for some sequences after the 3-3, white will have been able to play at "a" in the first diagram I've given, which might be slightly useful in attacking black (at least he cannot peep, for example).
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topazg
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Re: invasion after attach joseki
I totally agree that if Black invades the 3-3, the descent makes a lot of sense, as the corner is already being allowed to slip away and the compensation is an attack against the Black group on the edge. Playing the descent to settle it beforehand seems rather non-severe, and doesn't seem to be played by professionals, whereas the hane does. In fact, R9 as in the latest diagram is played more often than settling with the hane anyway - presumably in preparation that after Black invades the corner White can descend more effectively?
Looking it up, once White gets a stone at R9, Black almost never invades the 3-3 according to GoGoD's db, so I guess this is why...
Looking it up, once White gets a stone at R9, Black almost never invades the 3-3 according to GoGoD's db, so I guess this is why...
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Kirby
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Re: invasion after attach joseki
topazg wrote:I totally agree that if Black invades the 3-3, the descent makes a lot of sense, as the corner is already being allowed to slip away and the compensation is an attack against the Black group on the edge. Playing the descent to settle it beforehand seems rather non-severe, and doesn't seem to be played by professionals, whereas the hane does. In fact, R9 as in the latest diagram is played more often than settling with the hane anyway - presumably in preparation that after Black invades the corner White can descend more effectively?
Looking it up, once White gets a stone at R9, Black almost never invades the 3-3 according to GoGoD's db, so I guess this is why...
I agree with pretty much all that you've said. I also agree that the hane is a better way to settle. However, I didn't get the impression that anybody was suggesting playing the decent to settle beforehand. The second diagram Loons gave has the decent as the second move.
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Chew Terr
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Re: invasion after attach joseki
See, what I want to be able to start doing is stuff like this: defend the 3-3 by playing a move like R9 that makes it bad in the overall board position.
Someday I want to be strong enough to earn KGS[-].
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topazg
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Re: invasion after attach joseki
Kirby wrote:I agree with pretty much all that you've said. I also agree that the hane is a better way to settle. However, I didn't get the impression that anybody was suggesting playing the decent to settle beforehand. The second diagram Loons gave has the decent as the second move.
Ah, I thought Loons was saying the because it's a good response to the 3-3 invasion that doesn't induce Black to reinforce his right group, it would be a better move to prevent the invasion in the first place. Loons?
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Kirby
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Re: invasion after attach joseki
As a side note, for those of you that have GoGod, does the software allow for pattern searching, or do you have to create or use your own software for that?
I tried searching gogod.co.uk, but I get this message: "This site is unavailable because it is too busy.".
I've never bought GoGod, but I'm contemplating the purchase a little bit.
Edit: I think I figured out the answer to my own question. Senseis Library says that the disk includes Kombilo.
I tried searching gogod.co.uk, but I get this message: "This site is unavailable because it is too busy.".
I've never bought GoGod, but I'm contemplating the purchase a little bit.
Edit: I think I figured out the answer to my own question. Senseis Library says that the disk includes Kombilo.
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