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Who will win?
EGF pros 69%  69%  [ 40 ]
AGA pros 22%  22%  [ 13 ]
Don't know 9%  9%  [ 5 ]
Total votes : 58
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 Post subject: Re: EGF vs AGA pros win-and-continue match
Post #581 Posted: Sun May 19, 2019 1:16 pm 
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The referee decision is ok, its not fair to Mateus, but when there is insufficient rules, fairness of the tournament is based on player's sportmanship.
At moment american decided not only to not resign to avoid a win by disconnection, but to contest referee first's statement, (some of them publish their arguments and we can see they are stupid) , unfair decision was the only issue according to the rules.


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Post #582 Posted: Sun May 19, 2019 1:23 pm 
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yakcyll wrote:
because for me it's damn clear that if something out of the scope of the tournament rules can prevent me from winning, I should figure out what to do about it and let the officials know about it, not hide it thinking it will just magically go away.
Kirby wrote:
He explains an incident where he lost a byoyomi period. Did he think it was unlikely to happen again? Seems he wasn’t too concerned about it when the game result wasn’t on the line.
I don’t know if he should be required to initiate a discussion, but not doing so certainly seems risky, doesn’t it?
Could you look at the similar situation which I described in italic here
viewtopic.php?p=244896#p244896
and could you explain whether you would repeat your argument in that situation too?
If not, what is the difference between these two situations?

Bill Spight wrote:
And he certainly had time after the game to report the netlag problem. We can agree on that, right?
Mateusz probably complained to the proctor during the game, or the proctor noticed the lag himself (he noticed a 10-s lag, he probably noticed a 3-s lag too).
And Mateusz probably didn't see a reason to do it. He could expect another behaviour of organizers, read above.

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 Post subject: Re: EGF vs AGA pros win-and-continue match
Post #583 Posted: Sun May 19, 2019 2:36 pm 
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k0n0 wrote:
Why do you think Mateusz didnt complain to the proctor about the short lags? It is quite likely he did it.


I never said that he didn't.

Quote:
Anyway, if Mateusz complained to the proctor then his complaints would be nullified, because proctor's job was not to gather complaints.


We do not know that.

What we do know is that this tournament was poorly organized. It should have been possible to get in touch with an official on a moment's notice. And netlag in particular should have been provided for. But the organizers are working on new, and hopefully better rules and provisions. :D

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 Post subject: Re: EGF vs AGA pros win-and-continue match
Post #584 Posted: Sun May 19, 2019 2:40 pm 
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k0n0 wrote:
Imagine a classic real tournament. The organizers chose a small playing area, and so there is not enough room for tables and alleys between them. Alleys are extremely narrow. in order to walk in alleys, people must touch tables.


At this point you talk to the TD, referee, or other official.

Quote:
I am in byo-yomi, someone walks around and shoves to the table slightly. Stones shake themselves, but they stay at their intersections and I can play and press the clock in time.


At this point you call the TD or referee.

Quote:
Later someone walks again and shoves to the table more swiftly, all stones are moved, they must be rearranged and I cannot play within my byoyomi limit.


At this point you call the TD or referee in a loud voice. Stand up, jump up and down, whatever it takes.

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 Post subject: Re: EGF vs AGA pros win-and-continue match
Post #585 Posted: Sun May 19, 2019 2:45 pm 
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k0n0 wrote:
Bill Spight wrote:
And he certainly had time after the game to report the netlag problem. We can agree on that, right?
Mateusz probably complained to the proctor during the game, or the proctor noticed the lag himself (he noticed a 10-s lag, he probably noticed a 3-s lag too).


Maybe so. The referee should have asked the proctor what he saw. First, ascertain what happened.

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And Mateusz probably didn't see a reason to do it. He could expect another behaviour of organizers, read above.


He could expect incompetence from the organizers.

Edit: Later thought. Maybe he did. Why else impose a 10 second penalty on each byoyomi period if you expect the organizers to take care of netlag situations? Why keep silent about the problem if you expect a helpful response?

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 Post subject: Re: EGF vs AGA pros win-and-continue match
Post #586 Posted: Sun May 19, 2019 3:31 pm 
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Bill Spight wrote:
k0n0 wrote:
Imagine a classic real tournament. The organizers chose a small playing area, and so there is not enough room for tables and alleys between them. Alleys are extremely narrow. in order to walk in alleys, people must touch tables.
At this point you talk to the TD, referee, or other official.
The organizers chose this playing area, they see the alleys are narrow. What kind of their reaction would you expect?
Bill Spight wrote:
k0n0 wrote:
I am in byo-yomi, someone walks around and shoves to the table slightly. Stones shake themselves, but they stay at their intersections and I can play and press the clock in time.
At this point you call the TD or referee.
Again, what reaction would you expect?
Bill Spight wrote:
k0n0 wrote:
Later someone walks again and shoves to the table more swiftly, all stones are moved, they must be rearranged and I cannot play within my byoyomi limit.
At this point you call the TD or referee in a loud voice. Stand up, jump up and down, whatever it takes.
This is what Mateusz did.


Bill Spight wrote:
k0n0 wrote:
Anyway, if Mateusz complained to the proctor then his complaints would be nullified, because proctor's job was not to gather complaints.
We do not know that.
We know nothing, all time we are only speculating here. :D
But it looks that one of proctor's activities was nullified because it "was not included in the proctor's written job description" (quoting a fb post of Hajin Lee). If the referee want to be compact, he should apply this rule in any proctor's activity.

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 Post subject: Re: EGF vs AGA pros win-and-continue match
Post #587 Posted: Sun May 19, 2019 4:24 pm 
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k0n0 wrote:
Bill Spight wrote:
k0n0 wrote:
Imagine a classic real tournament. The organizers chose a small playing area, and so there is not enough room for tables and alleys between them. Alleys are extremely narrow. in order to walk in alleys, people must touch tables.
At this point you talk to the TD, referee, or other official.
The organizers chose this playing area, they see the alleys are narrow. What kind of their reaction would you expect?


They are on notice.

Quote:
Bill Spight wrote:
k0n0 wrote:
I am in byo-yomi, someone walks around and shoves to the table slightly. Stones shake themselves, but they stay at their intersections and I can play and press the clock in time.
At this point you call the TD or referee.
Again, what reaction would you expect?


To take note of the situation. Perhaps to make an announcement. Perhaps to restrict movement between tables during play. But the main thing is that they have been notified of the problem.

Quote:
Bill Spight wrote:
k0n0 wrote:
Later someone walks again and shoves to the table more swiftly, all stones are moved, they must be rearranged and I cannot play within my byoyomi limit.
At this point you call the TD or referee in a loud voice. Stand up, jump up and down, whatever it takes.
This is what Mateusz did.


Apparently not the first time that happened.

----

Presumably the organizers and players are on the same side, in that both want to have a good tournament. If the problem with the organizers is their inexperience and naiveté, then alerting them to a problem they did not anticipate will help them to correct the situation, or at least to improve the conditions of contest. Inaction because you expect a poor response does them a disservice. Also, putting them on notice may give you some protection, as it probably would have in this case. :)

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 Post subject: Re: EGF vs AGA pros win-and-continue match
Post #588 Posted: Sun May 19, 2019 6:03 pm 
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Fenring wrote:
At moment american decided not only to not resign to avoid a win by disconnection, but to contest referee first's statement, (some of them publish their arguments and we can see they are stupid) , unfair decision was the only issue according to the rules.


Let's be clear - referee made no public statement until a final decision had been made. The website also indicated no winner for the game while things were still being discussed. Decisions were considered prior to that, and discussed among the involved parties. First result was the loss indicated by KGS due to a loss on time, which in the end, ended up being the same as the official decision.

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 Post subject: Re: EGF vs AGA pros win-and-continue match
Post #589 Posted: Sun May 19, 2019 11:24 pm 
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Kirby wrote:

Let's be clear - referee made no public statement until a final decision had been made. The website also indicated no winner for the game while things were still being discussed. Decisions were considered prior to that, and discussed among the involved parties. First result was the loss indicated by KGS due to a loss on time, which in the end, ended up being the same as the official decision.

Let's be clear we have now public statements of the americans players where we can see they contested a resume-the-game decision with only stupid sentences.

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Post #590 Posted: Sun May 19, 2019 11:59 pm 
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Come on now. Calling them stupid sentences doesn't add anything to the debate. :) The next match is this Sunday and time is running out for the new rules to be published. Can you feel the anticipation building?

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Post #591 Posted: Mon May 20, 2019 12:05 am 
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not much related to the ongoing discussion, do you know who are the proctors and how does their job look like? ie does an international EGF referee have to travel to Kazan for each game? do they sit behind the player and over his shoulder watch the computer screen? do they follow him if he goes to fetch his kotlet schabowy?

banal questions, but i am curious

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Post #592 Posted: Mon May 20, 2019 3:28 am 
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Bill Spight wrote:
k0n0 wrote:
Imagine a classic real tournament. The organizers chose a small playing area, and so there is not enough room for tables and alleys between them. Alleys are extremely narrow. in order to walk in alleys, people must touch tables.


At this point you talk to the TD, referee, or other official.

Quote:
I am in byo-yomi, someone walks around and shoves to the table slightly. Stones shake themselves, but they stay at their intersections and I can play and press the clock in time.


At this point you call the TD or referee.

Quote:
Later someone walks again and shoves to the table more swiftly, all stones are moved, they must be rearranged and I cannot play within my byoyomi limit.


At this point you call the TD or referee in a loud voice. Stand up, jump up and down, whatever it takes.


And either way you don't play serious cash tournament in enviroment like this just as you shouldn't play serious cash tournament in net since fair game isn't possible in either situation.


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 Post subject: Re: EGF vs AGA pros win-and-continue match
Post #593 Posted: Mon May 20, 2019 7:04 am 
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Fenring wrote:
Let's be clear we have now public statements of the americans players where we can see they contested a resume-the-game decision with only stupid sentences.


Let's be clear we now have public statements by Mr. Surma that he refused a rematch.

I think there are strong arguments for why the resume the game option was problematic and a poor choice and not merely stupid sentences. In this particular board position, with Mr. Surma's account accepted (which I do) and the ability to immediately restart the game, perhaps it is the best ruling. But it is dependent on a particular board position, believing Mr. Surma (which in this case everyone does) and a prompt restart which was impossible and did not happen.

This is a horrible situation. But, from what I have seen, Mr. Surma did not lose because of the American's protest. He lost because his "flag" fell, and he refused a rematch.

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 Post subject: Re: EGF vs AGA pros win-and-continue match
Post #594 Posted: Mon May 20, 2019 7:37 am 
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HKA wrote:
Let's be clear we now have public statements by Mr. Surma that he refused a rematch.

{snip}

This is a horrible situation. But, from what I have seen, Mr. Surma did not lose because of the American's protest. He lost because his "flag" fell, and he refused a rematch.


Thanks for the new information. :)

OTOH, what happened is even murkier, because it seems to contradict previous accounts of what happened. :(

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 Post subject: Re: EGF vs AGA pros win-and-continue match
Post #595 Posted: Mon May 20, 2019 8:34 am 
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HKA wrote:
Let's be clear we now have public statements by Mr. Surma that he refused a rematch.

Which makes sense to me. Unlike the "accept 1-2 sec lag = accept 10+ sec and disconnection means losing" arguments, accepting a rematch would really had some "legal" consequences for him (still in quotes :))

That would have meant he accepts the whole situation, that a broken clock could really mean a half-game loss, and that the organizers don't try to avert or remedy a technical problem. (To be fair they did try that, only the AGA protest prevented it.)

IMO the current outcome may not be that bad, as most parties got what they wished for (moral victory vs. official "win"). Even the public - this interesting incident likely made go history.

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Post #596 Posted: Mon May 20, 2019 10:18 am 
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HKA wrote:
Let's be clear we now have public statements by Mr. Surma that he refused a rematch.

I think there are strong arguments for why the resume the game option was problematic and a poor choice and not merely stupid sentences. In this particular board position, with Mr. Surma's account accepted (which I do) and the ability to immediately restart the game, perhaps it is the best ruling. But it is dependent on a particular board position, believing Mr. Surma (which in this case everyone does) and a prompt restart which was impossible and did not happen.

If there is strong arguments, why do you continue to use arguments already shown as false?
1)" It is dependent on a particular board position". No. The rule "in case of proven disconnection,resume the game", its a general rule, not dependent from a particular board situation. Can't be retained against the decision "resume the game".(this rule is even better in this particular case,but doesn't mean she is bad in other cases, indeed, its the best one to reduce impact of disconnection)
2)"believing Mr.Surma", no, it's "believing Mr.Surma and his proctor" which according to the other rules is a necessity.
This is not an argument.
3)"a prompt restart which was impossible" only in this particular case, du to a fail in the organization.
BUT by luck, the particular failure of the organization in this case does not change the fact that it is still the best rule.

So basically this 3 arguments means "we are not going to apply the best rule in general ,which is also the best rule in this particular case, because if the organizers repeat the sames mistakes in others cases, this rule can't be applied".

"In case of disconnection,resume the game", its the best general rule, if organizers checks proctors can check clock and referee is available to communicate with proctors. And Its the best rule in this particular case too.


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 Post subject: Re: EGF vs AGA pros win-and-continue match
Post #597 Posted: Mon May 20, 2019 10:46 am 
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The discussion about right and wrong about referee decisions is starting to feel a little repetitive, even to me now - and I repeat things to death!

What's become more fascinating to me, now, is how to accurately measure time in the presence of lag. The best that I can think of is what other's have already thought of - client-side timing. This could still present interesting dynamics during the game. For example, in the presence of severe network lag, I might play a move - then my opponent's clock appears to be going down. Now he has only 1 minute of main time left. Wait a minute - I got a response from the server. He doesn't have 1 minute left - he actually has 8 minutes left, now. I guess that's not a big problem, but it'd be a little bit weird - though, I already experience this on KGS from time to time :-). A different experience than playing in person, for sure. There's also the concern about "hacking" client side timing, but that technical aspect is not all that different than preventing folks from using AI.

Trying to ensure a stronger network connection between the two player is another potential option. That's hard to do with existing go servers - though, a lot of servers may do better than KGS... I suppose another option is to do away with time limits for Internet games. But this could lead to some pretty drawn out matches.

Or just give up, and limit serious tournaments to face-to-face ones... Trying to think of other options, but nothing else comes to mind ATM.

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Post #598 Posted: Mon May 20, 2019 2:35 pm 
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I have been quiet about this topic, for many reasons, but Kirby's last post finally triggers me to enter this discussion.

1-
First, I have not noticed a discussion on the 'type' of lag (sorry if I missed this).
It seems to me to not have been an 'ordinary' lag.
I don't mean in terms of number of seconds, or (varying) frequency of lag, but in the way this lag manifested itself. Normally, also on KGS, if you have lag and run out of time, you lose. Everybode knows, understands and accepts. I suspect in this case, mr. Surma clicked 'on time' on his computer, but his click seems not not have been received or processed (2 different things, by the way) by the KGS server. If such a thing happens, the client computer screen can freeze. One can click, (seemingly) on time, but to no avail.
If it would have been a 'normal' lag, where the clock at the client side still ticks and the client/local program still functions, I understand mr. Surma's anger and frustration, but the final decision would make sense (at least, to me).
With a normal lag ánd manifestation thereof, we would better understand the final decision, I think. But if this was this 'freezing' lag, it is difficult to understand the final decision (for me).
I hope I made myself clear (?).
2-
Internet traffic is technically done in packets. Packets can be routed and distributedly routed. Normal internet traffic can cross many (regularly over more than 20 hubs for international traffic) crossing points.
The question I have missed so far to have been addressed is: who's to blame: mr Surma, the client program on mr Surma's computer, his ISP, KGS or some hub inbetween.
We want go and this game to be a a challenge between experts, a clash of minds, but where lies the responsibility, and the extent of that responsibility, for reliable international internet traffic, and under which circumstances would either party be to blame?
The cause-effect-responsibility-consequence relationships in this matter are not very clear (to me, at least, even up to now).
3-
Which brings me to my third thought.
It is not just about rules (as frequently discussed here). It is not just about procedures. It is not just about 'legal' or formal matters like about the status of a proctor. It is not just about technicalities and internet traffic. It is about a carefully considered, weighted balance between of all those aspects. Perhaps even including halting/adjourning an important game if difficult technical matters come up. I think there should be some side/emergency procedures in place (e.g. having another medium/call/app/server available), as others have already suggested. I hope the organizers are able to come up with a proper solution for future events.

I do have some other thoughts and ideas, but these are my 2 (or 3) cents.

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 Post subject: Re: EGF vs AGA pros win-and-continue match
Post #599 Posted: Mon May 20, 2019 2:40 pm 
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Kirby wrote:
Ok. IMO, the issue is more polarizing than clear cut - almost like politics or religion.
Yes, unfortunately, though I would rather call it a "fairness vs formalism" thing.

HKA wrote:
I think there are strong arguments for why the resume the game option was problematic and a poor choice ...
Oh, really? Could you please tell me what they are or where I can find them?
I still found only those lawyer-like-win-by-all-means ones...

HKA wrote:
... In this particular board position, with Mr. Surma's account accepted (which I do) and the ability to immediately restart the game, perhaps it is the best ruling. But it is dependent on a particular board position, believing Mr. Surma (which in this case everyone does) and a prompt restart which was impossible and did not happen.
I totally agree that the pause between the issue and the resumption of the game would be a strong argument in many cases, but not in this case and it is only this case that has to be judged. Creating new rules is a seperate process and has nothing to do with the ruling of this case.

So if immediately resuming the game would have been the best choice, you surely agree that resuming would also be the best choice if:
- The winning probability (WP) for both parties, at the time of the resumption, is the same as it was when that issue happened.
And because in this case the EGF-team will always accept a resumption, it is even sufficent to have a situation where:
- Eric Lui's WP at the time of the resumption is not below his WP at the time when that issue happened.
And what was his WP at the time when that issue happened?
As already been pointed out somewhere else and I am sure every (somewhat strong) player can confirm, even if Eric Lui gets all the remaining endgame moves, he will still lose the game.
So his WP at the time when that issue happened was exactly 0% (which OC can never drop lower).

Kirby wrote:
The discussion about right and wrong about referee decisions is starting to feel a little repetitive ...
Yes, absolutely, and IMHO this isn't even the real problem. The real source of anger of so many Go-fans is, IMHO, the protest of members of the AGA-team (and especially of the player of that game himself).

While I totally agree with Uberdude that Eric Lui's behaviour was still neutral when he didn't resign this 0%-WP-game (for pros it is also important to find the right moment to resign, so maybe he simply missed it. At the time the issue happened it was definitely already past) BUT the moment he protests against ANY ruling of the referee concerning this game, his behaviour becomes very unsportsmanlike! :sad:


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Post #600 Posted: Mon May 20, 2019 3:50 pm 
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1) As an American, I am very sorry for Mateusz, and the European team deserves to be 4-0. I believe I can say this and simultaneously hold the opinion that a rematch was the fairest option.

2) To those saying this is an easy fix, we can resume just for this one game, no need to worry about slippery slopes, and it won't require referees to have plans in place for other contingencies (e.g., obvious misclicks, less than obvious misclicks), I hope you are right.

3) This is the most divisive thread I have ever read on L19 where trolls were not involved. It has gone beyond bouncing ideas around and has become pretty hard to read.


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