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Who will win?
EGF pros 69%  69%  [ 40 ]
AGA pros 22%  22%  [ 13 ]
Don't know 9%  9%  [ 5 ]
Total votes : 58
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 Post subject: Re: EGF vs AGA pros win-and-continue match
Post #701 Posted: Mon Jun 03, 2019 12:47 am 
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sorin wrote:
I know they may eventually make the video commentary available on youtube [...] but that seems to be done with a great delay (game 4 is not available there yet).


There are programs and websites that allow you to download twitch videos. I'm not sure of the policy L19 regarding that, so I'm not publishing them here, but you can find them. The only thing is that twitch makes for rather "fat" videos, you'll have to pass it through a converter.

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 Post subject: Re: EGF vs AGA pros win-and-continue match
Post #702 Posted: Mon Jun 03, 2019 1:14 am 
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gowan wrote:
Well, I guess it shouldn't be surprising that some hypocritical commenters insisted that Lui should have resigned when significantly behind during overtime in game 4 but didn't then say that Jabarin should resign when more than 20 points behind in game 5. Or maybe Jabarin was hoping that Lui might lose due to running out of time; it was completely within his right to play to the end. Anyhow, it's good to have the game played without any foolishness. We can look forward to the next game.

I remember that decades ago the great Japanese champion Sakata played a tournament game all the way through the counting at the end to lose by more than 10 points. No one suggested that Sakata should have resigned earlier.


You can't expect same fairplay after Surma defeat than before.
Yes, Jabarin behavior was unfair, but fairness in this tournament is dead.

The people did not blame Eric for not giving up but for having preferred the victory by disconnection to the defeat on the goban.


Last edited by Fenring on Mon Jun 03, 2019 1:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: EGF vs AGA pros win-and-continue match
Post #703 Posted: Mon Jun 03, 2019 1:24 am 
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Fenring wrote:
Jabarin behavior was unfair, but fairness in this tournament is dead.


How was Jabarin's behavior unfair?

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 Post subject: Re: EGF vs AGA pros win-and-continue match
Post #704 Posted: Mon Jun 03, 2019 1:30 am 
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Unfair to continue hoping win by time or disconnection.

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 Post subject: Re: EGF vs AGA pros win-and-continue match
Post #705 Posted: Mon Jun 03, 2019 2:44 am 
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Fenring wrote:
Unfair to continue hoping win by time or disconnection.


I was unaware that he hoped to win by disconnection. But as far as winning by time is concerned, that's part of the game that everybody has agreed to. I don't know whether he hoped to win by time, either.

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 Post subject: Re: EGF vs AGA pros win-and-continue match
Post #706 Posted: Mon Jun 03, 2019 3:58 am 
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as already said, fairness/fairplay is not all that is allowed by the rules

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 Post subject: Re: EGF vs AGA pros win-and-continue match
Post #707 Posted: Mon Jun 03, 2019 7:00 am 
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Based on Ali's Facebook post, he seemed to be a good sport about the whole situation, so I’m pretty sure he played with fair intentions.

I’m glad we were able to have a game without time troubles this time. Though, it does make for a quieter thread on L19 :-p

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 Post subject: Re: EGF vs AGA pros win-and-continue match
Post #708 Posted: Mon Jun 03, 2019 7:33 am 
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Fenring wrote:
as already said, fairness/fairplay is not all that is allowed by the rules


Well, IMHO it is not fair to Jabarin to do mindreading on him.

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 Post subject: Re: EGF vs AGA pros win-and-continue match
Post #709 Posted: Mon Jun 03, 2019 8:23 am 
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Bill Spight wrote:
Well, IMHO it is not fair to Jabarin to do mindreading on him.


I can grant you that a pro can refuse to surrend for better reasons:
We can see in 2019, old famous pros are over-represented in loss by more than komi, probably because its a way to recognize the new generation.

But here what could be the reason?
De you have a better explanation?

On the last 1000 pro game none reaches a difference of 15.
So for you its a pure coincidence if the only game on thousand its in this transatlantic?
From a player who declare he can't understand why american players appeal the first decision of the referee?

I don't say that to blame Jabarin, as already said, after American appeal, fairness/fairplay can't be expected in this tournament.

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 Post subject: Re: EGF vs AGA pros win-and-continue match
Post #710 Posted: Mon Jun 03, 2019 8:46 am 
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Given the new rules, I don't think a win a disconnection would have been possible. Remains the possibility to win by time.

Would it be unfair to win by time against an opponent who previously won by disconnection?

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 Post subject: Re: EGF vs AGA pros win-and-continue match
Post #711 Posted: Mon Jun 03, 2019 10:07 am 
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Fenring wrote:
Bill Spight wrote:
Well, IMHO it is not fair to Jabarin to do mindreading on him.


I can grant you that a pro can refuse to surrend for better reasons:
We can see in 2019, old famous pros are over-represented in loss by more than komi, probably because its a way to recognize the new generation.

But here what could be the reason?
De you have a better explanation?


All you have to do is ask the guy.

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 Post subject: Re: EGF vs AGA pros win-and-continue match
Post #712 Posted: Mon Jun 03, 2019 2:41 pm 
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Or we could move on, post game records and discuss them. The Western pros will certainly appreciate their backbench gets back to discussing that aspect of their profession.


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 Post subject: Re: EGF vs AGA pros win-and-continue match
Post #713 Posted: Mon Jun 03, 2019 6:09 pm 
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Knotwilg wrote:
Or we could move on, post game records and discuss them. The Western pros will certainly appreciate their backbench gets back to discussing that aspect of their profession.


That'd be wise - though, I doubt we'd get 700 posts discussing the game records. Arguing with each other is so much fun!

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 Post subject: Re: EGF vs AGA pros win-and-continue match
Post #714 Posted: Mon Jun 03, 2019 6:49 pm 
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Ferran wrote:
sorin wrote:
I know they may eventually make the video commentary available on youtube [...] but that seems to be done with a great delay (game 4 is not available there yet).


There are programs and websites that allow you to download twitch videos. I'm not sure of the policy L19 regarding that, so I'm not publishing them here, but you can find them. The only thing is that twitch makes for rather "fat" videos, you'll have to pass it through a converter.

Take care.


Turns out that the video is available for replay on Twitch already: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/433553924

In fact all previous videos in this match are on Twitch at: https://www.twitch.tv/usgoweb/videos

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 Post subject: Re: EGF vs AGA pros win-and-continue match
Post #715 Posted: Mon Jun 03, 2019 11:05 pm 
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sorin wrote:
Turns out that the video is available for replay on Twitch already: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/433553924


Yes, of course. That's where I get them from. But I prefer to have them archived myself. Wouldn't be the first time I like a video and it ends up being discarded, or turned private, or is a victim of some weird DCMA claim...

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 Post subject: Re: EGF vs AGA pros win-and-continue match
Post #716 Posted: Tue Jun 04, 2019 12:35 am 
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Well, here's the game (Eric is black): Ali lost by a lot and even though he found a cute shortage of libs to live with one of his groups on the right the other was dead and he was far behind (r5 and p4 look dubiously heavy). IMO he shouldn't have played this game at 8pm after playing 2 games earlier in the day in the Amsterdam tournament (not saying this as an excuse and that he would have won otherwise, losing to Stephen Hu 5d shows he is not in good form atm). The game was originally scheduled for the week before (but delayed to write new rules), so he should either have cancelled his playing the tournament on Sunday or let the team/organisers know he is busy and another EGF pro play instead. If the organisers say "no, player order is fixed" then kick up a fuss and point out the schedule change is due to their mess up re rules. Or was playing in Amsterdam not Israel part of his new responsibility to make 'best efforts to ensure good connection'? I'm having trouble feeling any congratulations for Eric for playing well as his unsporting behaviour poisoned the event so just hope he loses soon and my enthusiasm returns when Ryan (who has a nice comment as play online series, see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YsYfp2TBnCQ) plays.



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Post #717 Posted: Tue Jun 04, 2019 3:48 am 
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Uberdude wrote:
IMO he shouldn't have played this game at 8pm after playing 2 games earlier in the day in the Amsterdam tournament (not saying this as an excuse and that he would have won otherwise, losing to Stephen Hu 5d shows he is not in good form atm). The game was originally scheduled for the week before (but delayed to write new rules), so he should either have cancelled his playing the tournament on Sunday or let the team/organisers know he is busy and another EGF pro play instead. If the organisers say "no, player order is fixed" then kick up a fuss and point out the schedule change is due to their mess up re rules. Or was playing in Amsterdam not Israel part of his new responsibility to make 'best efforts to ensure good connection'?


Given the controversy, I understand your discontent from the result of game 4 (I don't share the same feeling, but I can see your perspective). But to bring up reasons for losing like the game schedule and other tournament commitments seems a bit immature to me. Maybe if he ate something different for breakfast, the result would have been different. Maybe the weather outside hurt his chances :-p

Uberdude wrote:
I'm having trouble feeling any congratulations for Eric for playing well as his unsporting behaviour poisoned the event so just hope he loses soon and my enthusiasm returns when Ryan (who has a nice comment as play online series, see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YsYfp2TBnCQ) plays.


Just so we're clear on terms, earlier you said this:
Uberdude wrote:
IMO sportsmanship is going BEYOND what is required by the rules to pursue the ideals/spirit of the game. Not doing so does not mean you are unsportsmanlike, it's just neutral. Unsporting behaviour is behaviour within the rules but against the spirit of the game.


What did Eric do that was against the spirit of the game?

On facebook, I raised the possibility of just giving the win for the tournament to the European team, and you said it'd be throwing the baby out with the bathwater. From the tone here, I'm of the impression that no other result would bring you satisfaction.

---

To end this thread on a positive note, congratulations to Eric for a well-played game!

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 Post subject: Re: EGF vs AGA pros win-and-continue match
Post #718 Posted: Tue Jun 04, 2019 4:32 am 
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Kirby wrote:
Uberdude wrote:
IMO he shouldn't have played this game at 8pm after playing 2 games earlier in the day in the Amsterdam tournament (not saying this as an excuse and that he would have won otherwise, losing to Stephen Hu 5d shows he is not in good form atm). The game was originally scheduled for the week before (but delayed to write new rules), so he should either have cancelled his playing the tournament on Sunday or let the team/organisers know he is busy and another EGF pro play instead. If the organisers say "no, player order is fixed" then kick up a fuss and point out the schedule change is due to their mess up re rules. Or was playing in Amsterdam not Israel part of his new responsibility to make 'best efforts to ensure good connection'?


Given the controversy, I understand your discontent from the result of game 4 (I don't share the same feeling, but I can see your perspective). But to bring up reasons for losing like the game schedule and other tournament commitments seems a bit immature to me. Maybe if he ate something different for breakfast, the result would have been different. Maybe the weather outside hurt his chances :-p


I think it quite likely Ali would have lost even if he was refreshed and alert, it's more playing in these conditions is similar to Mateusz not standing up and complaining about his lag earlier: I think the EGF pros are suffering from naivety and not protecting themselves as Bill puts it and would be better to have sharper elbows even if that can be seen as being difficult.

Kirby wrote:
Uberdude wrote:
I'm having trouble feeling any congratulations for Eric for playing well as his unsporting behaviour poisoned the event so just hope he loses soon and my enthusiasm returns when Ryan (who has a nice comment as play online series, see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YsYfp2TBnCQ) plays.


Just so we're clear on terms, earlier you said this:
Uberdude wrote:
IMO sportsmanship is going BEYOND what is required by the rules to pursue the ideals/spirit of the game. Not doing so does not mean you are unsportsmanlike, it's just neutral. Unsporting behaviour is behaviour within the rules but against the spirit of the game.


What did Eric do that was against the spirit of the game?

As I've said before Eric continuing to play in a late-game losing position vs Mateusz was neutral, not unsporting (and Ali doing the same here likewise, but even more understandable given this tournament has established wins by technical issue are preferred to gracious resignations). What I consider unsporting was his objection to the referee's first decision of resuming the game vs Mateusz. Agreeing to it would be neutral. Sporting/magnanimous would be saying "Don't bother with that faff, I resign anyway, well done Matuesz, I don't want lag to spoil our game" (this could be done even before the referee arrived after the delay and ruled for a resumption).

Kirby wrote:
On facebook, I raised the possibility of just giving the win for the tournament to the European team, and you said it'd be throwing the baby out with the bathwater. From the tone here, I'm of the impression that no other result would bring you satisfaction.

Eh? I wouldn't find that satisfying. Much more satisfying would be if Ali had beaten Eric on the board, but that didn't happen. So now it's onto hoping Pavol wins. I find wins decided by Go skill much more satisfying than those decided by technical issues or forfeits.

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 Post subject: Re: EGF vs AGA pros win-and-continue match
Post #719 Posted: Tue Jun 04, 2019 5:13 am 
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What I consider unsporting was his objection to the referee's first decision of resuming the game vs Mateusz. Agreeing to it would be neutral. Sporting/magnanimous would be saying "Don't bother with that faff, I resign anyway, well done Matuesz, I don't want lag to spoil our game" (this could be done even before the referee arrived after the delay and ruled for a resumption)


1.) We know what Gangshen wrote, because he posted it. We don’t know the dialog between Eric and the organizers, so making conclusions from that is simply gossip.

2.) Referee made a single official decision, which was what was announced. The first informal decision was provided by the server (loss by time).

3.) If objecting to a referee’s decision is unsporting, Mateusz is equally unsporting for his objections. It’s not like the EGF pros are altruistic victims here. Both sides wanted to win game 4, and objections to informal decisions came from both sides.

4.) We’ve been rehashing game 4 for awhile now, so i had hoped the new game could bring us some sort of a restart. I guess not.

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 Post subject: Re: EGF vs AGA pros win-and-continue match
Post #720 Posted: Tue Jun 04, 2019 5:19 am 
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Kirby wrote:
2.) Referee made a single official decision, which was what was announced. The first informal decision was provided by the server (loss by time).


If there was a single decision, what had both team objected to ?

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