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 Post subject: Re: Following Iyama Yuta (no world ranking discussions)
Post #401 Posted: Wed Jun 05, 2019 7:39 am 
Judan

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Re alternative for c12, here is the gist of my plan (p14 was typo for h14):

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . O X X . X O X X X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . O , O X . O O O X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . 6 . O X O . X . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 5 . 3 4 O O X . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 7 . . 1 O . . X X O . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X X . X O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . 2 . O X . . O X O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . X O O X . X X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O O O X . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . O O X O X O O O X O . |
$$ | . . X O X X X X . O X O . . . X O . . |
$$ | . O O X . X O X . O X . O . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O X . O X . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , X . . O X O X X X O O O O . . |
$$ | . . . O X . O . X O X O O X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . X O O O . X X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


However, the fly in the ointment is the m18 weakness which means white doesn't need to take gote at j15. Black 9 only threatens to cut 4 now unimportant stones so white has defend the k16 push-and-cut in sente and can go on the offensive with 10. However, I don't think black's middle stones will die (particularly if white connects in reply to j12 atari with a-b-c next so maybe that will be a ko) as they can run to the left or bottom and white's group isn't alive either. So probably everyone lives (but white living doesn't seem trivial) and the entire area is dame, instead of 20+ point white territory like in the game.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . 6 7 X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . O X X 8 X O X X X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . O , O X 9 O O O X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . 0 . . . O X O . X . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 5 . 3 4 O O X . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . c . . . 1 O . . X X O . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . a O X X . X O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . 2 b O X . . O X O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . X O O X . X X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O O O X . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . O O X O X O O O X O . |
$$ | . . X O X X X X . O X O . . . X O . . |
$$ | . O O X . X O X . O X . O . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O X . O X . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , X . . O X O X X X O O O O . . |
$$ | . . . O X . O . X O X O O X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . X O O O . X X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This post by Uberdude was liked by: Bill Spight
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 Post subject: Re: Following Iyama Yuta (no world ranking discussions)
Post #402 Posted: Fri Jun 07, 2019 1:14 am 
Dies with sente

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Uberdude wrote:
Oops, I got confused by the Yike Chinese UI and a long pause! Here's the game:


For some reason, L19/Chrome won't let me download *this* game. It's inline, though, so I just copied it Just in case it happens to someone else.

Take care.

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 Post subject: Re: Following Iyama Yuta (no world ranking discussions)
Post #403 Posted: Fri Jun 07, 2019 1:42 am 
Judan

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Ferran, assuming you got the http 414 error that's because the eidogo player attempts to download the game content as the parameter of a http GET request, and the L19 server has been configured to have a length limit on that shorter than this sgf file content with all the commentary/variations.

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 Post subject: Re: Following Iyama Yuta (no world ranking discussions)
Post #404 Posted: Fri Jun 07, 2019 10:18 am 
Dies with sente

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Uberdude wrote:
Ferran, assuming you got the http 414 error that's because the eidogo player attempts to download the game content as the parameter of a http GET request, and the L19 server has been configured to have a length limit on that shorter than this sgf file content with all the commentary/variations.


That... hurts.

Yes, that was the case. Until I tried to reply, I thought the sgf where files, not inline content.

Thanks. Take care

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 Post subject: Re: Following Iyama Yuta (no world ranking discussions)
Post #405 Posted: Fri Jun 14, 2019 12:29 am 
Judan

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Honinbo game 4 in late middlegame, here's some commentary courtesy of MiniGo which I switch to because LZ misread a critical ladder. (Please excuse ?? encoding problem of prior Chinese commentary)

Update: Iyama closed out the win.



Attachments:
2019 Honinbo 4 minigo review.sgf [48 KiB]
Downloaded 619 times
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 Post subject: Re: Following Iyama Yuta (no world ranking discussions)
Post #406 Posted: Sat Jun 15, 2019 5:58 pm 
Lives in gote
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Uberdude wrote:
Re alternative for c12, here is the gist of my plan (p14 was typo for h14):

However, the fly in the ointment is the m18 weakness which means white doesn't need to take gote at j15. Black 9 only threatens to cut 4 now unimportant stones so white has defend the k16 push-and-cut in sente and can go on the offensive with 10. However, I don't think black's middle stones will die (particularly if white connects in reply to j12 atari with a-b-c next so maybe that will be a ko) as they can run to the left or bottom and white's group isn't alive either. So probably everyone lives (but white living doesn't seem trivial) and the entire area is dame, instead of 20+ point white territory like in the game.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . 6 7 X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . O X X 8 X O X X X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . O , O X 9 O O O X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . 0 . . . O X O . X . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 5 . 3 4 O O X . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . c . . . 1 O . . X X O . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . a O X X . X O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . 2 b O X . . O X O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . X O O X . X X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O O O X . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . O O X O X O O O X O . |
$$ | . . X O X X X X . O X O . . . X O . . |
$$ | . O O X . X O X . O X . O . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O X . O X . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , X . . O X O X X X O O O O . . |
$$ | . . . O X . O . X O X O O X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . X O O O . X X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I assume there's a reason why 7 at 8 is wrong:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . 6 8 X 9 . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . O X X 7 X O X X X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . O , O X . O O O X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . O X O . X . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 5 . 3 4 O O X . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . c . . . 1 O . . X X O . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . a O X X . X O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . 2 b O X . . O X O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . X O O X . X X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O O O X . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . O O X O X O O O X O . |
$$ | . . X O X X X X . O X O . . . X O . . |
$$ | . O O X . X O X . O X . O . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O X . O X . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , X . . O X O X X X O O O O . . |
$$ | . . . O X . O . X O X O O X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . X O O O . X X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I also assume in your variation, capturing the P16 stones with O15 is small.

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 Post subject: Re: Following Iyama Yuta (no world ranking discussions)
Post #407 Posted: Mon Jun 17, 2019 10:32 pm 
Judan

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Fedya wrote:
I assume there's a reason why 7 at 8 is wrong:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . 6 8 X 9 . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . O X X 7 X O X X X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . O , O X . O O O X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . O X O . X . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 5 . 3 4 O O X . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . c . . . 1 O . . X X O . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . a O X X . X O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . 2 b O X . . O X O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . X O O X . X X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O O O X . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . O O X O X O O O X O . |
$$ | . . X O X X X X . O X O . . . X O . . |
$$ | . O O X . X O X . O X . O . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O X . O X . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , X . . O X O X X X O O O O . . |
$$ | . . . O X . O . X O X O O X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . X O O O . X X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


That's a good question, and a variation that needs to be read and evaluated too. Black doesn't die or anything catastrophic like that, but white gets a better / more sente squeeze. White gets both 3 and 5 in sente here, 5 is useful to connect in the centre, 3 could be useful to make some eyespace in the g18 area (and gain liberties). With my variation it appears that could also be true if white starts with L18 to make the sacrifice larger not just starting at k16. However, the important point is the "in sente" is for what threat if ignored? With m17 connection the answer is white is threatening to capture the entire black group of 5 stones. With my sequence it's just the tail of 2 stones.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 6 . 4 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . 3 2 1 O O X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . O X X X X O X X X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . O 5 O X . O O O X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . O X O . X . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . X O O O X . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X O . . X X O . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X X . X O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O . O X . . O X O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . X O O X . X X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O O O X . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . O O X O X O O O X O . |
$$ | . . X O X X X X . O X O . . . X O . . |
$$ | . O O X . X O X . O X . O . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O X . O X . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , X . . O X O X X X O O O O . . |
$$ | . . . O X . O . X O X O O X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . X O O O . X X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


So for example if white goes for the squeeze/sacrifice immediately instead of g15, black could consider ignoring and going for the outside. It's also worth noting capturing 2 stones is not an 100% alive shape so 4 here is annoying, whereas the 5 stones is 100% alive.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . 4 . 3 1 O X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . O X X O X O X X X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . 2 . O , O X X O O O X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . O X O . X . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . X O O O X . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X O . . X X O . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X X . X O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O . O X . . O X O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . X O O X . X X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O O O X . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . O O X O X O O O X O . |
$$ | . . X O X X X X . O X O . . . X O . . |
$$ | . O O X . X O X . O X . O . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O X . O X . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , X . . O X O X X X O O O O . . |
$$ | . . . O X . O . X O X O O X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . X O O O . X X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Fedya wrote:
I also assume in your variation, capturing the P16 stones with O15 is small.

Yes, it's small for now as gote and just connects n16 to o15, stones which are already connected around the corner. But at ~10 points it's a moderate sized endgame move and white did incur a loss (of ~5 points, because that's half of 10 and 50% chance black gets to cut) by giving black a stone at n16 to use the m18 tesuji. That's another reason n18 connect is the better answer to m18 peep.

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 Post subject: Re: Following Iyama Yuta (no world ranking discussions)
Post #408 Posted: Mon Jun 17, 2019 10:40 pm 
Judan

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Honinbo game 5 (score 2-2) so far, Iyama is white. Kono going retro with the small shimari again. Interestingly after the ko trade LZ prefers white at 63%, whilst FineArt on Fox gives black 51%. But they both agree o15 should be o14, presumably as white's going to die anyway so you want to be more efficient.



Update: Iyama won by 4.5, so after a bad start is now 3-2 up.


Attachments:
2019 Honinbo game 5.sgf [4.52 KiB]
Downloaded 417 times
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 Post subject: Re: Following Iyama Yuta (no world ranking discussions)
Post #409 Posted: Fri Jun 21, 2019 6:20 am 
Judan

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Iyama lost in the 1st round of 31st Asian TV cup to Korean Shin Minjun 9p. He was there as NHK cup runner up. Ichiriki Ryo (NHK Cup winner) lost to Chinese Ding Hao 4p.




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 Post subject: Re: Following Iyama Yuta (no world ranking discussions)
Post #410 Posted: Thu Jul 04, 2019 6:38 am 
Judan

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Iyama beat Kono Rin in the 6th game of the Honinbo title match to defend his title 4-2 after losing the first 2 games.

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