Dinerchtein vs van Zeist

[breakfast]

Tommorow at 8.30 AM we will hape Appeal comittee meeting

We just had the same episode as in Leksand-2008. My opponent Rob van
Zeist lost the game on time, because Ing clocks were not talking.

I had the same story in the last round in Sweden (with Park Chonwook) and the referee told me that it's my own responsibility to check clocks sound. So, I lost that game.

Today the referee made the decision to continue (I lost on territory)

I heard about 2 cases in Sweden EGC-2008 from
http://homepage.mac.com/bjornwendsjo/go/egc2008/7.pdf

If you saw such episodes on other tournaments, please describe them here

[Li Kao]

Personally I prefer the player not losing when his clock malfunctions. But a consistent ruling should be worked out so they don't decide differently each time.

[LovroKlc]

On a tournament as important as the EGC in a game as important as this onethis should not happen. Once I lost on tima in one tournament here in Croatia. We decided to continue the game. If my oppponent lost that way, I would let him continue. Only maybe if that opponent was some rules expert, always talking about rules. Than, I would gladly take the win.

[xed_over]

Personally I prefer the player not losing when his clock malfunctions.

But did the clock malfunction? Or was the sound turned down/off?

[breakfast]

Sound was on minimum possible volume, but it was possible to notice it. Rob already played 30+ moves on byoyomi

[tmge]

I believe that during the EGC this incident has happened a few times. I saw someone losing on time on his first byo-yomi period because the sound was low and he didn't notice.
He accepted his loss on time.
(but was losing on the board anyway)

I almost lost a game myself the same way (noticed I had entered byo-yomi 4 sec before the end of the 20 sec period... just enough time to play a random move).

The players are free to set the clock sound as they like (volume, language) and it's their responsibility to check the volume and the time.
Once the time has ran out, the game is lost, there's no discussion here to me.

Furthermore, if it wasn't Mr van Zeijst's first move in byo-yomi, I don't understand why there's a discussion. He knew he was in byo-yomi and should have turned up the volume or checked the time.

[henric]

I agree that this sort of thing should not happen in such an important game. But what to do about it, how can it be avoided?

In my opinion the latest version of the Ing timers is not as good as the first ones, where the sound couldn't be turned down completely. It's dangerous that the clocks can be completely silent. Also it's more practical if the players themselves are responsible for checking the clock status - there are other things besides sound that could be set wrong. But in such case it is also better if the players set up the clocks to begin with, rather than someone doing it for them. On the other hand, this is probably feasible only if there is just one kind of clock being used, in this year's EGC there were two or mor kinds of clocks and one cannot expect everybody to be familiar with all of them.
How many different kinds of clocks will be used in next year's EGC if there are more than 1000 participants (as the organisers expect)?

I lost my first game at the EGC in Tampere on time myself, in the first place because the clock was unexpectedly to me totally silent. I think that I absent mindedly had turned the sound down to zero myself, being used to the older style clocks, where the sound never disappears completely. As I recall I was also confused about the byo-yomi length, since there wasn't any info on that in the papers that had been handed out, and the visual display on the clock was unfamiliar to me. No big deal to me, I certainly didn't play for any prize or title, but a bit annoying and it would be nice if things like this could be avoided.

It will be interesting to see what the Appeals committee says in this case.

cheers,
H.

[breakfast]

I believe that during the EGC this incident has happened a few times. I saw someone losing on time on his first byo-yomi period because the sound was low and he didn't notice.
He accepted his loss on time.
(but was losing on the board anyway)

In Tampere? Or earlier?
Can you tell more details please, including tournament name and players names

[Boywing]

I think it is the organizers responsibility that the clock is not broken.
Then it is the players responsibility to adjust the sound to their preference.

A lot of players choose to turn off the sound.
If they loose on time it's their own fault.

[willemien]

I don't know what happened

The rules say :

EGF GENERAL TOURNAMENT RULES,(Updated June 2010) http://www.eurogofed.org/egf/tourrules.htm
5 TIMING RULES,
3 Other overtime systems:

Where Japanese Byoyomi is used together with a timekeeper, a timepiece is set to the byoyomi time. The timekeeper counts down the last 10 seconds, and a move must be completed within the byoyomi time period.

Where Japanese Byoyomi is used together with a digital clock, a move must be completed within the byoyomi time period.

a problem is that the sound setting itself sometimes can be part of good sportmanship.
(Is it reasonable to turn the sound on knowing how it can have a negative influence on players on nearby boards, also is it allowable for players to turn the volume up as it is changing a clock setting)

Also who mentioned (called) the time out
What happened after the time out.

Now it this will be regulated by the EGF rules


I had a look at the AGAnament rules but they also don't require that Byoyomi pronounced load and clearly it even says at

AGA Tournament Regulations (2005)
VI. Administration of Play
E. Timekeeping.
14. Overtime
b. Japanese.

5) The "reading seconds" provision of the Ing chess/go clock is an
acceptable way to carry out this method of overtime.

Looking forward to the future:
How will the new European Professional Go League decide in these situations?
(and needs this organisation its own appeals and rules commision?)

[Harleqin]

I guess that the clocks need a soundcheck button.

[Kirby]

In my opinion, if you lose on time, you lose on time. Whether the clock makes a sound doesn't seem relevant.

[Harleqin]

In my opinion, if you lose on time, you lose on time. Whether the clock makes a sound doesn't seem relevant.

Have you ever tried to play a moderately slow game on KGS without time warning (no beeps, no blinking)?

[Kirby]

In my opinion, if you lose on time, you lose on time. Whether the clock makes a sound doesn't seem relevant.

Have you ever tried to play a moderately slow game on KGS without time warning (no beeps, no blinking)?

I do not use sound on KGS, but I always use byo-yomi. The byo-yomi always blinks, I think, so I cannot say that I have.

However, the reason I have this feeling is that, while some people might get burned in the short term, people will learn to be more careful of their time. The time is there for a reason.

If we make some fancy rules that allow for play to continue after time has really elapsed, it may allow for a player to develop a strategy to take advantage of this when he has to take a lot of time to think (eg. "If I let time run out, I receive penalty X, but at least I can work out this difficult tsumego problem.").

I don't think it's beneficial to make adjustments to the rules for an issue like clock time.

With a good argument, my opinion could be changed, but I haven't been able to think of one, yet.

[freegame]

The time is there for a reason.

In a tournament like the EGC the goal is to find the strongest Go player.
Time is of course an element in this, but should not be the dominant factor.

It is my understanding that not playing in time in byoyomi means you played a "pass" in most tournament in The Netherlands. This seems like a fair penalty to me. This is also announced at the start of the tournaments, including a warning about the clocks sound. but I don't think that there is a rule like this in the EGF/ING rules that are used at the EGC.

I think therefore that according to the rules Dinerchtein had indeed the right to claim the win. But if doing so was good sportsmanship is another matter (this depends on the situation/moment, something that is very hard to judge about without having been there to see it happen).