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Who will win?
EGF pros 69%  69%  [ 40 ]
AGA pros 22%  22%  [ 13 ]
Don't know 9%  9%  [ 5 ]
Total votes : 58
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 Post subject: Re: EGF vs AGA pros win-and-continue match
Post #781 Posted: Mon Jul 08, 2019 4:59 am 
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Fenring wrote:
I wonder if this tournament does not have a negative impact and if it would not be better to stop it, in the interest of the development of Go in Europe.
Let me explain:

In Europe, a radically different choice has been made to insist on sportsmanship.

It is in the rules of our Federation, and this allows us to handle cases where the rules are insufficient or the lack of resources of the organization is felt.

A real example:
- Player A forgets if it is his turn to take the last ko or if he has to play a threat.
- Player A asks his opponent B, who does not answer
-Player A resumes the ko, B calls the referee for a forbidden move.
Thanks to the rule of sportsmanship, the referee decides to cancel the forbidden move and continue the game.
We see that this is not at all the logic of the transatlantic tournament, where the player A should have paid more attention to the last move / ask a referee before playing, etc.
For me this change of logic poses several problems:

The first and the least important, but that we can already see is that this implies a very good organization, which is not compatible with the lack of current means: We already see that in this topic: people complain now about the time schedule, which was not the case before(and its logic, if the most important is not what happens on the board,but to decide a winner no matter what, you have to put more attention to this). I'm not even sure that this level of requirement is achievable by an online tournament.

The second point is that these professional players represent us and influence us. So to see them in a tournament where they can not rely on sportsmanship, it's a long-term risk to influence the behavior of go players in Europe, a behavior's change that I do not see as positive, and which could therefore harm the development of Go in Europe


I think this is utter nonsense.
Matches like this are good for European and American Go, but they wont affect the average amateur player and how they play at all


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 Post subject: Re: EGF vs AGA pros win-and-continue match
Post #782 Posted: Mon Jul 08, 2019 6:09 am 
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Leon wrote:

I think this is utter nonsense.
Matches like this are good for European and American Go, but they wont affect the average amateur player and how they play at all

You say its good for european Go(in what?) but at same time no affect the average player? its a contradiction,no? If this games doesn't affect average amateur player, better not to play them, considering money and energy/time it involve.
Indeed, if professional don't influence average player, would be in the interest of our federations to stop the pro system,no?

Now what to say to a player who is fake thinking because he notice his opponent forgot to hit the clock? "i can use my time as i want, i respect the rules, hit the clock is my opponent responsibility,even more than internet connection, so it is normal behavior "

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 Post subject: Re: EGF vs AGA pros win-and-continue match
Post #783 Posted: Mon Jul 08, 2019 6:50 am 
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Fenring wrote:
The second point is that these professional players represent us and influence us. So to see them in a tournament where they can not rely on sportsmanship, it's a long-term risk to influence the behavior of go players in Europe

A bit of such may be possible but unlikely significant.

IMO in the end, good sportsmanship and good human behaviour in general does not come from following examples or expecting similar behaviour in return.

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 Post subject: Re: EGF vs AGA pros win-and-continue match
Post #784 Posted: Mon Jul 08, 2019 7:24 am 
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The viewers on twitch.tv averaged between 2,000 and 5,000+ during the match. I believe there were over 10,000 during an EGF event earlier this year. There were many questions being asked in the chat like "what are the rules" or "where can I play this game". In my opinion, one of the benefits of having tournaments like this is outreach. You may even go as far as to say that we are tapping a market of likely younger people who already enjoy playing games. Maybe some of them will even visit a local club in the future.

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 Post subject: Re: EGF vs AGA pros win-and-continue match
Post #785 Posted: Mon Jul 08, 2019 9:30 am 
Tengen

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Can anyone explain why 152 in the last game requires White to come back and defend at O5?

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 Post subject: Re: EGF vs AGA pros win-and-continue match
Post #786 Posted: Mon Jul 08, 2019 10:51 am 
Judan

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hyperpape wrote:
Can anyone explain why 152 in the last game requires White to come back and defend at O5?

152 doesn't require o5. 152 was probably a timesuji trying to decide if o5 or taking gote at b5 was better. o5 is a prophylactic move, making it harder for black to peep at o6 and harass the connection between m4/o3 and the m7/o7 stones above. I was actually rather surprised Ilya didn't try something in that area before. It could be because it's difficult and whilst the best sequence in the area would almost certainly give black some profit, the wrong sequence could backfire so he just left it alone for now. So o5 was a good move, the trade is quite ok for white, though the next trade of ignoring c6 was perhaps less good and just blocking at d6 is ok. However, when black later peeped at o6 white just connected at n7 which was a bit sad to not be able to resist with o6, but that was because he'd made the 152 push losing a liberty thus making the cut atari (after black n11 sente) and resistance problematic. If Ryan had played another thick endgame move at o4 instead of h16 later then I think he might have won, he's usually good at finding the thick moves for good yose (mentions it sometimes in his videos), but was unlucky to miss it this time.

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 Post subject: Re: EGF vs AGA pros win-and-continue match
Post #787 Posted: Mon Jul 08, 2019 11:56 am 
Tengen

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Thanks. The AGA summary suggested 152 required O5, which is why I asked: https://www.usgo.org/news/2019/07/shiks ... p-for-egf/.

Also interesting to see that H16 is small enough that O4 is probably better.

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 Post subject: Re: EGF vs AGA pros win-and-continue match
Post #788 Posted: Mon Jul 08, 2019 12:17 pm 
Judan

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Hmmm, after the push if no o5 I suppose the whole group could be in danger even if you can still connect to the lower side stones. k9 was a big thick move for both.

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 Post subject: Re: EGF vs AGA pros win-and-continue match
Post #789 Posted: Mon Jul 08, 2019 6:33 pm 
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I am surprised I don't hear much about white 128 - when white decided to capture at M8 (ponnuki) instead of capturing two stones in the upper right when black peeped. Stephanie approved of that during the game comment, but I thought it's better to capture two stones, and LZ seems to agree: it gives 90+% for capture two stones, vs 50+% for the ponnuki played in the game.

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 Post subject: Re: EGF vs AGA pros win-and-continue match
Post #790 Posted: Mon Jul 08, 2019 10:46 pm 
Judan

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Indeed sorin it was a big turning point of the game. Not only did Black's group connect to safety with profit but white lost the s15 tesuji which would be very nice yose later. I can only imagine Ryan lacked confidence for the fight if he answered and thought the simplifying trade of the game was good enough to preserve his advantage.

s10 connection was another one, Ilya could have tenukid to capture the 2 stones in the centre with k11 (LZ thought white preventing this in almost-sente with l11 was a good move for most prior moves) and not died, thanks to the p18 aji in a nice little tsumego.

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 Post subject: Re: EGF vs AGA pros win-and-continue match
Post #791 Posted: Tue Jul 09, 2019 6:00 am 
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sorin wrote:
I am surprised I don't hear much about white 128 - when white decided to capture at M8 (ponnuki) instead of capturing two stones in the upper right when black peeped. Stephanie approved of that during the game comment, but I thought it's better to capture two stones, and LZ seems to agree: it gives 90+% for capture two stones, vs 50+% for the ponnuki played in the game.


I've looked at the position a bit, and if an uncaptured M8 extends southward, black takes a big chunk of territory on the lower side, and the black center group lives by killing L8.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . O X . O O . . |
$$ | X O O O O O O . . , O O X . X X X . . |
$$ | . X O X O X O X . . . X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O X X . . X . X O . O O X . . |
$$ | . X . X X O . X . . . X X 1 X O X O . |
$$ | . . . . O O . X O O X . X O X O X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . O O X O O X . O O X X . . |
$$ | . . . X . O X . 7 O X X O . O O O X . |
$$ | . . O X . O . . 6 4 X O O X O X O . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . 8 5 3 O X O X X X X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . B . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O O O O . . . B . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . X X . X O O . . . . . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . O X . O O . . |
$$ | X O O O O O O . . , O O X . X X X . . |
$$ | . X O X O X O X . . . X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O X X . . X . X O . O O X . . |
$$ | . X . X X O . X . . . X X O . O X O . |
$$ | . . . . O O . X O O X . X O . O X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . O O . O O X . O O X X . . |
$$ | . . . X . O X . O O X X O . O O O X . |
$$ | . . O X . O . . X X X O O X O X O . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . X O O O X O X X X X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . B . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O O O O . . . B . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . X X . X O O . . . . . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Once L8 is surrounded, white has only one eye and must tenuki back to O16.

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 Post subject: Re: EGF vs AGA pros win-and-continue match
Post #792 Posted: Tue Jul 09, 2019 6:26 am 
Judan

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@Joaz, white 3 here should be better

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . O X . O O . . |
$$ | X O O O O O O . . , O O X . X X X . . |
$$ | . X O X O X O X . . . X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O X X . . X . X O . O O X . . |
$$ | . X . X X O . X . . . X X 1 X O X O . |
$$ | . . . . O O . X O O X . X O X O X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . O O X O O X . O O X X . . |
$$ | . . . X . O X . . O X X O . O O O X . |
$$ | . . O X . O . . . . X O O X O X O . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . O X O X X X X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 2 3 O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O O O O . . . X . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . X X . X O O . . . . . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: EGF vs AGA pros win-and-continue match
Post #793 Posted: Tue Jul 09, 2019 9:30 am 
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I haven't seen any commentary, yet, but this was a complicated game for me to follow. It's hard for me to judge which areas were bigger, especially toward the late middle game.

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 Post subject: Re: EGF vs AGA pros win-and-continue match
Post #794 Posted: Tue Jul 09, 2019 9:50 am 
Judan

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I've got an idea why Ryan ignored n13 and went for the trade: if he answers then black has in sente created the option for his group to live unconditionally at k13 so doesn't need to worry so much about being closed at k9 (he just answers to live in gote) or white taking the inside eyes forcing him to run out. That's clearly a gain for black compared to if white had peeped at n12 earlier (say instead of m9). So this simple logic shows that white would have an inferior position to if he could undo and play better in the past. So he goes for a drastically different result which cannot be argued with simple comparison to be slightly inferior because it requires much more judgement, but it ends up being hugely inferior. I often make this mistake myself too, particularly when fighting spirit gets the better of me.

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 Post subject: Re: EGF vs AGA pros win-and-continue match
Post #795 Posted: Tue Jul 09, 2019 8:15 pm 
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Uberdude wrote:
I've got an idea why Ryan ignored n13 and went for the trade: if he answers then black has in sente created the option for his group to live unconditionally at k13 so doesn't need to worry so much about being closed at k9 (he just answers to live in gote) or white taking the inside eyes forcing him to run out. That's clearly a gain for black compared to if white had peeped at n12 earlier (say instead of m9). So this simple logic shows that white would have an inferior position to if he could undo and play better in the past. So he goes for a drastically different result which cannot be argued with simple comparison to be slightly inferior because it requires much more judgement, but it ends up being hugely inferior. I often make this mistake myself too, particularly when fighting spirit gets the better of me.


Ah, psychological fallacy... :-)

Either that, or Ryan thought that he is ahead and wanted to simplify and play thick.

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 Post subject: Re: EGF vs AGA pros win-and-continue match
Post #796 Posted: Fri Jul 26, 2019 3:08 pm 
Judan

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Ryan will review his game with Ilya on Monday July 29th at https://www.youtube.com/c/nyiggo, so we can find out his thoughts.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/go.igo. ... 391291514/

Edit: here it is https://youtu.be/cyxSAsWU-Go?t=1386, he called not capturing the 2 stones a brainfart moment, he was also led astray by the fear of ko atari on the 2 stones, but as he says he can ignore that. Tough to review games like that, but I'm glad he plucked up the courage to do it.


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