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 Post subject: Beginner Bots
Post #1 Posted: Wed Jul 10, 2019 12:58 pm 
Lives with ko

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Hi,

I'm playing very weak beginner bots on OGS (good) and ShinKGS (many disconnects).

I find it quite frustrating that mostly I am defeated badly - or the bot gives up.

It seems to calculate the (possible) territory, but I'm quite sure I would not be able to defend all that territory.

So, where a human player would play on and challenge me, the bot resigns.

For learning, I find this very annoying.

Is that the way of bots generally, or is it just the very weak ones?

(No, I've never played a human, much too anxious to try that... :shock: )

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I'm a complete beginner. Please be patient if my questions are stupid.
Please also keep in mind that I'm not a native speaker of English: I might seem impolite or unclear without intending to. Thanks for all help, it is much needed and much appreciated!

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Post #2 Posted: Wed Jul 10, 2019 1:59 pm 
Honinbo
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I've never played a human, much too anxious to try that... :shock:
Why? :scratch:

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 Post subject: Re: Beginner Bots
Post #3 Posted: Wed Jul 10, 2019 11:26 pm 
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A bit like what Needo posted in his study journal - it feels not so pressured making stupid mistakes with a bot as opponent. I can't imagine a bot to laugh or shake their heads (one day they will...)

Moreover, I've seen no 25+k player out there.
I think anyone better than that will have a lot to laugh.

But, since someone (15k) just suggested a correspondence game, I'll jump into the water.

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I'm a complete beginner. Please be patient if my questions are stupid.
Please also keep in mind that I'm not a native speaker of English: I might seem impolite or unclear without intending to. Thanks for all help, it is much needed and much appreciated!

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 Post subject: Re: Beginner Bots
Post #4 Posted: Wed Jul 10, 2019 11:42 pm 
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2 or 3 years ago I used the app "Champion Go" on my smartphone. If I remember correctly, level 1 was about 20 kyu (or perhaps slightly better, hard to evaluate), it's possible to play handicap games and to turn off "computer resign".


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 Post subject: Re: Beginner Bots
Post #5 Posted: Thu Jul 11, 2019 6:16 am 
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You should not be trying to play even games against bots, especially at the beginner level. You shoulod play against bots at least 3-5 levels stronger than you are at, taking perhaps a three stone handicap.

That way, although the bots will still be making mistakes, those will be mistakes of a player significantly stronger than you are and not making the mistakes of players at the level you are.

As for premature resining, you might not be at a level where you can see why. For example, you see a large area of yours and don't see why the opponent can't successfully invade. Can't see a clear way that you could capture the invaders (you expect to make mistakes in doing so). But perhaps you might want to look at situations like that:
a) Are your surrounding stones connected (or could force connection) and ae they surely alive?
b) Is there space inside for the opponent to create a definitely alive group? No way for you to easiiy interfere with the creation of that.

Understand? If your surrounding stones are alive and the opponent cannot form a live group then those invaders are dead. You WOULD be able capture them.


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 Post subject: Re: Beginner Bots
Post #6 Posted: Fri Jul 12, 2019 1:19 am 
Judan

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Here and on reddit recently I'm often seeing beginners scared/anxious to play other humans and preferring bots instead. I don't think it's a good trend...

(I just looked at OGS, there was a 27k human game offer).


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Post #7 Posted: Fri Jul 12, 2019 2:10 am 
Honinbo
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beginners scared/anxious to play other humans and preferring bots instead.
small world
( for now, it's much less likely the bot will behave unpleasantly, v. human opponents; but who knows about skynet. )


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 Post subject: Re: Beginner Bots
Post #8 Posted: Fri Jul 12, 2019 11:52 pm 
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Just as a very positive feedback:

Fennan broke my blockade!

(He,she?) sent me a challenge for a 13x13 conversational game (now paused for the weekend).

But now I've jumped in, I played 6 9x9 games against humans yesterday (24k, 16k, 15k).
Lost all badly.

Some people don't even say "hi" and leave after I resigned.

But the 15k was helpful and let me play 4 games.
Now we have a "friendship" on OGS.

I find it a bit more embarrassing to be playing so bad, but I also enjoy when someone is patient enough to play me.
Bots (if not occupied) are always there and don't care.

So, thanks to all who pushed me a bit :D !!

_________________
I'm a complete beginner. Please be patient if my questions are stupid.
Please also keep in mind that I'm not a native speaker of English: I might seem impolite or unclear without intending to. Thanks for all help, it is much needed and much appreciated!


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Post #9 Posted: Sat Jul 13, 2019 12:48 am 
Honinbo
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:tmbup:

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 Post subject: Re: Beginner Bots
Post #10 Posted: Sat Jul 13, 2019 4:09 am 
Lives with ko

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In my club, 15k is already a fairly accomplished player. Novices start at about 40k and reaching 15k is already quite an accomplishment.

IME players that progress quickly, still require about at least 6 months and 80 games (mostly on smaller boards) to reach 15k. But there are many more (mostly kids admittedly) that don't reach 15k even after playing 100s of games on smaller boards. You started 2 months ago, so I think your expectations may be too high when you feel you should be able to beat human 15k players. It doesn't seem realistic to me, unless you are a prodigy or perhaps if you spend 10 hours a week or so on studying go.

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 Post subject: Re: Beginner Bots
Post #11 Posted: Sat Jul 13, 2019 4:18 am 
Lives with ko

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@ gennan:

Sorry for the misunderstanding.

I do not expect to have a chance against a 15k player!

Only, OGS was quite emty when I tried, and the 24k who beat me did not want a revanche and did not chat at all, but the 15k was willing to play and said "practice is important to learn".
Maybe it even was someone from here??

So, I was happy that a 15k was so friendly to play.

I'm not thinking about kyu progress right now, I think I have not played a ranked game.
Having that pressure would make me even more anxious and certainly ruin my fun.

Sorry that I was unclear.

PS: At the moment, I spend about 15 hours a week on go, but not really studying.
Doing 321go in the morning, play bots in the evenings, and a few "basic problems" on tsumego pro app during my commute. I've decided to do what I enjoy, and that is playing some games, the interactive learning at 321go, and playing out (plus asking questions here on) problems I don't understand.
I've played 49 9x9 games in the last 9 days, and I do not expect to be 15k when I reach 80 games ;-)

_________________
I'm a complete beginner. Please be patient if my questions are stupid.
Please also keep in mind that I'm not a native speaker of English: I might seem impolite or unclear without intending to. Thanks for all help, it is much needed and much appreciated!


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