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 Post subject: How to make eyes in the center
Post #1 Posted: Thu Jul 11, 2019 12:12 pm 
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See title.

Its a situation I find myself in quite a bit lately, but in which I am utterly clueless.

We are talking about a relatively open center, but some influence from the opponent can be felt there. Still assume plenty of room to run and make shape (but nothing to connect to).

Can someone give me some basic pointers? I know the question and situation is extremely vague, but I have no direction on what to do, regardless of what shapes I aim for, it always seems easy enough for my opponent to poke out the eyes.

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 Post subject: Re: How to make eyes in the center
Post #2 Posted: Thu Jul 11, 2019 12:38 pm 
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try to play lightly? don't commit to a definite shape and be flexible?

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 Post subject: Re: How to make eyes in the center
Post #3 Posted: Thu Jul 11, 2019 1:11 pm 
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paK0 wrote:
See title.

Its a situation I find myself in quite a bit lately, but in which I am utterly clueless.

We are talking about a relatively open center, but some influence from the opponent can be felt there. Still assume plenty of room to run and make shape (but nothing to connect to).

Can someone give me some basic pointers? I know the question and situation is extremely vague, but I have no direction on what to do, regardless of what shapes I aim for, it always seems easy enough for my opponent to poke out the eyes.


The rule of thumb I learned as a beginner from reading Korschelt, was this:
Korschelt wrote:
One eye and access to the center.
Apparently he got that from his teacher, Murase Shuho. It suggests that it is relatively easy to make one eye in the center, but not two.

I know that advice is like the old joke:

Patient: Doc, it hurts when I do this.

Doctor: Then don't do that.

But unless you are sure-footed about making a single eye in the corner, making two eyes is difficult.

Also, even if a group of floating stones does manage to live in the center, the opponent's attack can win the game by making territory elsewhere.

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 Post subject: Re: How to make eyes in the center
Post #4 Posted: Thu Jul 11, 2019 1:38 pm 
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Two eyes in the center.



Attachments:
7fc-gokifu-20071223-Cho_Chikun-O_Meien.sgf [1.24 KiB]
Downloaded 189 times

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 Post subject: Re: How to make eyes in the center
Post #5 Posted: Thu Jul 11, 2019 1:41 pm 
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Hi paK0,
First, you should make eyes in the center only when there is no other way to win the game. The center is the last place where you want to live : corners first, edges second.

Even if you live in the center, the amount of points that you can expect there is extremely small, because your opponent can reduce you from the four sides.

This said, the technique to live in a hostile environment is called sabaki.

One principle is that, under this special situation, playing against your opponent's stones is good (it is bad in nearly all other situations).
Attach - hane - crosscut is usually a good shape in this case.

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Post #6 Posted: Thu Jul 11, 2019 2:20 pm 
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Hi pak0,

General question ===> general replies ( see all above ).

More general perhapses:
  • we miss key sequences to live ( tsumego helps );
  • we miss key sequences to escape;
  • we miss key sequences to counter attack ( or even kill );
  • we mis-evaluate the values of groups ( eg. OK to trade );
  • we mishandle the group in the first place ( re: post 2 );
  • etc.; guidelines only go so far; need specific board to discuss
Quote:
the technique to live in a hostile environment is called sabaki.
A broader sense is more like this Sensei paraphrase, "skillfully handling an awkward situation".

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Post #7 Posted: Thu Jul 11, 2019 3:27 pm 
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EdLee wrote:
Quote:
the technique to live in a hostile environment is called sabaki.
A broader sense is more like this Sensei paraphrase, "skillfully handling an awkward situation".


I think shinogi is a better term for living (specifically) in a hostile environment. See https://senseis.xmp.net/?Shinogi , which includes an example of making life in the center. :)

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 Post subject: Re: How to make eyes in the center
Post #8 Posted: Fri Jul 12, 2019 1:53 am 
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Post a recent example game. How does the trouble arise? Do you:
* Play first in the center and then leave your stones in order to play elsewhere?
* Invade after your opponent has formed some sort of framework in the center?
* Other?

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 Post subject: Re: How to make eyes in the center
Post #9 Posted: Fri Jul 12, 2019 2:23 am 
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Here's a nice example of LeelaZero making eyes in the centre, from move 64. Note it starts with a knight's move rather than a one-point jump, that's something I've picked up / reinforced from LZ, one point jumps are susceptible to a peep which make you an eyeless stick. Knight moves aren't so easily peeped in sente (though you can take the dog head shape point ie o13 for move 65). They can be cut, but when trying to build eyes in the centre that's often not a worry because you can sacrifice part (light play) and cutting would give you momentum to attack the cutting stone and settle the other half. Note also p13 is a shoulder hit to an opponent stones, leaning on it to help build eyeshape.



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 Post subject: Re: How to make eyes in the center
Post #10 Posted: Fri Jul 12, 2019 1:16 pm 
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Thanks for the examples, I think I got something out of that, usually I run too long and don't take the shape moves when they present themselves, so I end up with a stick.

@ez4u: Its often the result of a reduction. I am looking for general advice and not really anything specific. I attached a game still, its pretty examplatory, with the exception of my opponent letting me connect. But I should not have won this.


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18642215-270-paK0-lancy bloom.sgf [2.04 KiB]
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 Post subject: Re: How to make eyes in the center
Post #11 Posted: Fri Jul 12, 2019 3:01 pm 
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A few comments:
- f3 did kill, but only because h4 is a white not black stone "weak door group". If h4 was black then f3 would allow seki, so h1 is the better way to kill. It also means black can't get h1 in sente whilst dying, so for example black l2 in the game is sente to connect out the group, but with h1 kill it's only sente for ko connect.
- o10 is a nice idea :tmbup: , kyu players often invade too deeply, so this is nice.
- But I'm guessing (lazy to count) you are far ahead from that kill so the subsequent play is a bit heavy and giving yourself a chance to get in trouble. o12 isn't really sente (can't split or break in side if he ignores), he was kind to answer, at a minimum n11 peep to make heavy then answer is a nicer rhythm.
- n6 offer a valuable lesson: try n7 instead. Your reduction stones above are weaker than your stones below so play closer, trying to connect. The idea is if black n6 you hane on the outside at m6. Or if n8 then o8 o7 m7 and if he is kind enough to o9 ( rather than fight) then n9 counter atari and squeeze
- in the game your group cut cut off and you give black a clear game plan to win: try to kill. It didn't need to get this risky. e.g. k6 atari doesn't help your strong territory much but weakened centre: maybe later you want to pull out the stone, or k10 peep.
- j11 is running with stick into black area, try l13 to build a box of eyespace
- k13 good, but then k12 block for max eyespace and taking libs for followup on black.
- for j14 think about jumping/leaning around l16.


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 Post subject: Re: How to make eyes in the center
Post #12 Posted: Fri Jul 12, 2019 3:06 pm 
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Top of the head comments:

:w86: at L-11

:w98: or White 100 at L-13

This may not be best, but White 114 at M-12

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