European Professional Go League

[ethanb]

Weakest members in these 12 will lose pro status, so the number of professionals will be unchanged: only 12 every year. The situation in Japan is completely different.
In Korea they also think in direction of removing pro status from weak professionals

The only problem I think about that is that if it's possible to lose your pro status, people will not consider it a viable career. What would someone do if, they became a pro at 16, then 20 years later they lost their pro status? If they didn't have much money their life would be over at 36.

This is just my unqualified opinion, but I think it is better to make the test exceedingly difficult and only admit 1 or 2 people a year, than it is to have 12 people at any one time.

Yes, I would suggest asking many or all of the pros who have emigrated to Europe (don't forget Guo Juan! ) to sit on the board of directors of the organization. They would be the first professionals. Then hold the customary tournament for identifying the strongest players who would like to be professional. Given the size of the field in Europe (and the U.S. as well, if a similar association were to start here) I would suggest no more than one new pro per year at the current level, possibly to be increased in the future as the number of players rises.

Then market heavily, promoting Go and the professional league in Europe. Televise title matches with pro commentary on the BBC or whatever local networks will do it. If necessary, find something similar to PBS community television in the U.S. Make Go into something as popular in the common mind as chess. When people have heard about it, they want to play, and playing kindles the desire to be good at what they do, which increases the population of players, which gradually increases the number and strength of the top level players.

Once the professional organization has been established as something respectable (i.e. not diluting the ranks by promoting new players of questionable strength, actively participating in the community, etc.) then it'll be on the road to success. That would be awesome.

But I don't want to see a failed "pro" organization, or one that is laughed at because a 4d amateur became "pro" in the last tournament. That hurts way more than it helps. Linux users are still smarting from the demise of Loki Games in 2002 due to mismanagement and misappropriation of funds by the top level management. The first player in a new market has a tough road to hoe, but if they fail it means the second player has an impossible task because it's been "proven" not to work. Please don't kill any dreams of a professional organization in the U.S. by thinking in the short-term in Europe.

A global strategy is better than local tactics.

[Harleqin]

I actually think that the shown system is viable. It is a good start to give a sort of accreditation to a number of players, to loosely organize them into a dedicated community, and to make this community visible through a league.

All further things, like giving permanent status or paying a salary, can only come when this community is established and has a significant income.

[tapir]

Neither professional musicians or professional electricians have a guaranteed minimum income, to choose two professions at near-random. Of course, professional carries the expectation that there are opportunities for income, but that's not the same as a guarantee.

I still would have preferred that an other name had been chosen, such as "European League of Go Masters".

If you called this groups of pros and amateur 7d for "European Go Grand Masters" the similarity to chess would make everyone understand. "Pro" does sound like someone waving a handbag in a street corner.

Exactly! Or if it should resemble another popular sport call it European Go Champions League

[Javaness]

I think that their chosen name, considered in combination with their press release, is quite appropriate. The plan is to have a professional league to support the top Europeans. They acknowledge their strength is currently lower than CJKT professionals, but state that this project aims to address this. I hope they have success with their idea.

[RobertJasiek]

What does the list of "signatures" mean? During the EGC, a shorter list was published and I have heard that not everybody in that list actually did sign in writing. Now I see a longer list of signatures. Who could have signed and who could not? I could not but why? Nobody told me that I might attend the formation meeting; I learned about it the day afterwards. Why has nobody told me? Why are there 4d and 5d on the list but not every 4d+ was asked to attend? Why was the meeting not announced before the EGC so that possibly other high dans could have attended? It all looks like "We have done something, now follow us who we were first as we like!". A restart with proper announcement for everybody would be better.

The meeting summary suggests establishing professionals but apperently only Playing Professionals. This is unrealistic. Even in Asia most professionals are mainly Teaching Professionals. In Europe we actually do have some Teaching Professionals and sometimes Semi-professionals. Some of them are kyu players. Some of them like me are amateur dan players and currently presumably not strong enough in playing strength to be pure Playing Professionals instead. Why has the meeting said nothing about the in practice so very important (because relatively frequent) Teaching Professionals? Is the EuroProGoLeague meant to produce Playing Professionals only?

It is very unclear what the status "professional" due to the EuroProGoLeague is supposed to mean. Such a status makes the mistake to exclude the amateur playing strength Teaching Professionals. Now does that mean that Europe is going to make the same mistake as Asia and create protective guildes, which - depending on design - might even contradict EU law spirit of freedom of profession? I am not sure because at least the league design seems to be half-open in some sense. But then again what shall the status "professional" mean??? Call it "Person currently being eligible to play in the EuroProGoLeague" and it would make some true sense. Call it "professional" as if there were no other professionals like in particular the Teaching Professionals and they would have to fight against such an attempted protectionism.

IOW, is the whole idea protectionism and separation or is it openness and broad encouragement of every professional European go person of whichever nature?

[pwaldron]

IOW, is the whole idea protectionism and separation or is it openness and broad encouragement of every professional European go person of whichever nature?

If you don't like the way it's set up, Robert, you are welcome to get together with like-minded individuals and form your own professional association. It's not like they have a monopoly.

[gowan]

If the goal is to develop a group of professional strength players then the name is not appropriate IMO. Better would be something like "Professional Training League". Anyhow just having a group of strong players who play each other trying to improve probably isn't going to work. The players can develop "shared" weaknesses and similar bad habits that don't get corrected unless there is a mentor or teacher stronger than the league players who can point out these errors.

[hyperpape]

If the goal is to develop a group of professional strength players then the name is not appropriate IMO. Better would be something like "Professional Training League". Anyhow just having a group of strong players who play each other trying to improve probably isn't going to work. The players can develop "shared" weaknesses and similar bad habits that don't get corrected unless there is a mentor or teacher stronger than the league players who can point out these errors.

Which is why go players have only ever gotten weaker since the dawn of time. The only way around it would be for us to use time travel to bring in stronger players from the past or future!

[Bantari]

What does the list of "signatures" mean? During the EGC, a shorter list was published and I have heard that not everybody in that list actually did sign in writing. Now I see a longer list of signatures. Who could have signed and who could not? I could not but why?

I agree with you about the 'signatures list' in general, I am also not clear who the signees are? Already members? Prominent Go players who support the idea? What? So, a few people signed a proposal/decision, what does it mean? If they are all members, I think this is not good, the members should be, for starters, all active 7d+ players. The rest, the super-strong by under-ranked 6ds and 5ds will get the chance to play in the league and become EuroPros... if they're good enough.

So yes, I don't get how some 4d and 5d players who are not even close to the EuroElite can be EuroPros right from the start, but others were not even asked/considered.
Seems strange to me...

The meeting summary suggests establishing professionals but apperently only Playing Professionals. This is unrealistic. Even in Asia most professionals are mainly Teaching Professionals. In Europe we actually do have some Teaching Professionals and sometimes Semi-professionals. Some of them are kyu players. Some of them like me are amateur dan players and currently presumably not strong enough in playing strength to be pure Playing Professionals instead. Why has the meeting said nothing about the in practice so very important (because relatively frequent) Teaching Professionals? Is the EuroProGoLeague meant to produce Playing Professionals only?

Here I think you are making too much fuss and getting too dramatic.
Europe needs better players more than it needs better teachers, or at least - this is the aim of this league, as far as I can tell. There is nothing stopping the non-pros from teaching others. Just like in J/K/C there are probably many non-pros who earn money teaching Go. Or am I wrong? Is teaching Go exclusive to the 'pros' in Japan, for example? I don't really know, but I'd think it is not so. I know for a fact there are tons of people in Asia who are not 'pros' but who still make a (good) living from Go.

In any case - in each of the pro organizations, as far as I know, it is purely and only the playing strength that lets one to become a pro. What one does with the status afterwards, teaching or playing or any combination thereof, is up to the individual. Same goes for EuroPros, no?

Still, if it bothers you so much, how about you start another associations, the EuroTeachingPros? Then anybody will be able to belong to either or both organizations, and life will be peachy, no? But... what would be the purpose of the EuroTeachingPro association, what would it do? What would be the criteria for admission?

[RobertJasiek]

pwaldron, it is not my intention to split European players into different organizations. Also a division into amateurs and professionals by means of different rank systems I prefer to be avoided because different systems make comparisons yet more difficult and because status (of a pro rank) does not express actual playing strength well.

I am not even sure whether the EuroProGoLeague people want to create a professional association at all. Do they?

[RobertJasiek]

Bantari, protectionism is already there. So far it favoured (ex) non-Europeans that instead of Europeans were invited to teach at tournaments. Now it favours also those with higher rating numbers or pro ranks. E.g., during the AGM 2010 it was said that only Europeans with rating 2650+ would be eligible for invited / possibly paid / travel supported teaching at congresses. This is like saying that others would lack sufficient teaching ability and be weaker teachers.

Maybe you did not know and therefore call my statements of facts "much fuss" and dramatic. I would like to see Europeans with the same interests working together instead of carelessly or intentionally trying to divide. That the EGF for too long has been carelessly ignoring some needs of strong and / or professional European players (like timely announcement of prizes) does not need to be continued by a new organization or even carved into stone by a third one.

Mistakes are there to be avoided - not to be made in the first place.

[Bantari]

Bantari, protectionism is already there. So far it favoured (ex) non-Europeans that instead of Europeans were invited to teach at tournaments. Now it favours also those with higher rating numbers or pro ranks. E.g., during the AGM 2010 it was said that only Europeans with rating 2650+ would be eligible for invited / possibly paid / travel supported teaching at congresses. This is like saying that others would lack sufficient teaching ability and be weaker teachers.

But these decisions are not made by some umbrella organization, but by the organizers at each event, right?
And they have the right to invite and pay whoever they want, I see not way for force them to do something or forbid them to do something else in this respect. And I can understand that - organizers wish to add interest and prestige to their events by having teachers as strong as possible. The question if the stronger player is also a better teacher is immaterial here (although very interesting in another context) since the issue is perception and status, not actual teaching skill. To change this, you need to change the perception, not impose regulations.

Besides, I find that natural:
I would not pay a 10k 'Go Teacher' to fly from New York to San Diego and give a lecture in our club here.
I might however pay a 9d pro Go Teacher for the same service.
I don't see how anybody can argue with the above.

You say that Asian strong players are preferred as teachers over European strong players at events. Well, then, as a matter of fact, what the EuroPro might accomplish is to help the European strong teachers being as prestigeous as invitee teachers as the Asian teachers, or more so. I see it as a tremendous potential advantage to the whole European Go community. Might also give the 'weaker' teachers incentive to actually get better. And if not, there will always be opportunities for teaching for everybody, I think.

There are more and more Go players in Europe, and they need more and more teachers. Take yourself for example. You, as a ama 5d teaching for money - this is not really that strange now. There are many like you. There are kyu players out there charging for lessons... and more power to them, if they find pupils. But I don't remember when I was still in Germany, in the 80s, that people would think like that. Don't remember anybody asking for money for teaching Go, even if there were some 5ds then too, strong ones. And 6ds too... People did not think like that, was just not cool...

Times change, and from what I see - they change for the benefit of people like you, who wish to charge people to teach Go.

Therefore - in my eyes - you fuss! Period.

[RobertJasiek]

The former 10k teacher has specialized in teaching at schools. Possibly he might do it better than a 9p.

I agree with you that times are becoming better in general: the demand for teaching increases. This does not invalidate my earlier objections though.

[willemien]

What does the list of "signatures" mean? During the EGC, a shorter list was published and I have heard that not everybody in that list actually did sign in writing. Now I see a longer list of signatures. Who could have signed and who could not? I could not but why? Nobody told me that I might attend the formation meeting; I learned about it the day afterwards. Why has nobody told me? Why are there 4d and 5d on the list but not every 4d+ was asked to attend? Why was the meeting not announced before the EGC so that possibly other high dans could have attended? It all looks like "We have done something, now follow us who we were first as we like!". A restart with proper announcement for everybody would be better.

The meeting summary suggests establishing professionals but apperently only Playing Professionals. This is unrealistic. Even in Asia most professionals are mainly Teaching Professionals. In Europe we actually do have some Teaching Professionals and sometimes Semi-professionals. Some of them are kyu players. Some of them like me are amateur dan players and currently presumably not strong enough in playing strength to be pure Playing Professionals instead. Why has the meeting said nothing about the in practice so very important (because relatively frequent) Teaching Professionals? Is the EuroProGoLeague meant to produce Playing Professionals only?

It is very unclear what the status "professional" due to the EuroProGoLeague is supposed to mean. Such a status makes the mistake to exclude the amateur playing strength Teaching Professionals. Now does that mean that Europe is going to make the same mistake as Asia and create protective guildes, which - depending on design - might even contradict EU law spirit of freedom of profession? I am not sure because at least the league design seems to be half-open in some sense. But then again what shall the status "professional" mean??? Call it "Person currently being eligible to play in the EuroProGoLeague" and it would make some true sense. Call it "professional" as if there were no other professionals like in particular the Teaching Professionals and they would have to fight against such an attempted protectionism.

IOW, is the whole idea protectionism and separation or is it openness and broad encouragement of every professional European go person of whichever nature?

You are a bit harsh on a very new organisation. I think they are still have to formalise themself and to decide who can join and who not. ( It will be by Egf rating, other rating or some pro test / admission tournament)

Until they have sorted themelves out they cannot be treated as representing the strongest European players, but a bit positive to a new european go organisation is a good thing.


Teachers or strong players?

Here also they still need to sort themselves out. maybe at the end there will be 2 organisations one for teachers and one for strong players.

Professional Status.

Here there will be a problems here as well, I think most strong players will prefer a place in the WAGC or other world amateur tournament than the (non paying) title Go- professional.
(And what if they lose their pro status are they then eligable for amateur tournaments again?)

So the organisers still have a lot to sort out, but still I doesn't concern me (i am not strong enough )
But it is a new organisation to promote Go

(and Robert don't dispair they will need their own rules comitee)

[richardamullens]

Sorry, but I couldn't resist posting this link http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-e ... e-10917053