Needo's Nonsense

[EdLee]

Hi Needo,

I can't wait until I learn how to read, so that I don't do moves like 121 again.

That's good.

Can you find a better local move. ( Your empty triangle is a red flag. )

Not Following Bruce Wilcox: 21 (my triangle should have played B7)

Not quite. Please try again.

B9 push-forward. ( B7 is "timid, pull-back feeling"; B9 is more work, but a good foundation shape to pick up. )
Can you see if also gets B9, makes a good shape with the tiger's mouth;
thus B9 is a "local, shared, key point" -- both and want it.

Your top right corner in dire condition. Tenuki requires reading of the Life-and-death here.

some of the moves might look like followitis because I am trying to continue the contact until stable

follow-itis...(?); did you play because you count only 3 liberties for your R4 string ?
( This is an exception where more contact is worse off for you.
One way to fix your local shape is S2, instant life; another candidate is N2 hane. )

[jlt]

Move was necessary because should have been at B4.

Is your corner alive after ?

For I would have chosen the other hane at R4, this connects your two stones better.

After the cut at R3 looks problematic.

I don't think the peep was bad, it helps you to escape. On the other hand was slow. Your stone doesn't need to be saved.

was necessary if you want to keep some hope to save your corner...

...however, is your corner alive if Black 148 were at T15?

[Bill Spight]

Top of the head comments:

B-05. White is secure and cannot be cut.

B-09. Black cannot cut White in two.

Q-18. Save the group in the corner.

[Needo]

Not quite. Please try again.

I just saw that by playing B9 i was still safe from the B7 cut.

did you play because you count only 3 liberties for your R4 string ?

I t was because of the 3 liberties. Also it was a hugely misguided attempt at protecting my R8 group. Now looking at it, I just made things worse.

Is your corner alive after ?

I thought It was. But with Two other players questioning move I am not so sure now. The reading is further than what I can do now. But I think that I will make a life and death problem out of it to further explore why it is or isn't alive.

[Needo]

I thought It was. But with Two other players questioning move I am not so sure now. The reading is further than what I can do now. But I think that I will make a life and death problem out of it to further explore why it is or isn't alive.

Scratch that! After looking at :b148: at T15, I was dead If I didn't use to secure life.

I really need to learn how to read! I guess that means more tsumego for me.

[EdLee]

It was because of the 3 liberties.

Ah; now you see liberties are only one of the multitude of factors to evaluate. Somewhere in Contact Fights Bruce mentioned "reading supercedes (any general guidelines)".

Also it was a hugely misguided attempt at protecting my R8 group. Now looking at it, I just made things worse.

Exactly. It is not uncommon when you have two groups split by your opponent that playing on either groups may damage the other one, as is the case here ( hurting R8 group).

[jlt]

I really need to learn how to read! I guess that means more tsumego for me.

"More tsumego" is never ending...

Actually, even after your corner was dead, however killing it is not easy.

$$B Black to kill
$$ --------------+
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . X . X O . . |
$$ . . . X O . . |
$$ . . . X O . . |
$$ . . . X O . . |
$$ . . . X O . . |
$$ . . . X X X . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B Black to kill
$$ --------------+
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . X . X O . . |
$$ . . . X O . . |
$$ . . . X O . . |
$$ . . . X O . . |
$$ . . . X O . . |
$$ . . . X X X . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |[/go]

This problem appears in http://goproblems.com/prob.php3?id=19171

P.S. With Black 148 at T15, I think that White is dead too.

$$W
$$ --------------+
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . X . X O 2 . |
$$ . . . X O . 1 |
$$ . . . X O O X |
$$ . . . X O . X |
$$ . . . X O 4 3 |
$$ . . . X X X . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$W
$$ --------------+
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . X . X O 2 . |
$$ . . . X O . 1 |
$$ . . . X O O X |
$$ . . . X O . X |
$$ . . . X O 4 3 |
$$ . . . X X X . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |[/go]

$$W
$$ --------------+
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . X . X O 2 . |
$$ . . . X O . 1 |
$$ . . . X O O . |
$$ . . . X O 5 6 |
$$ . . . X O 4 3 |
$$ . . . X X X . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$W
$$ --------------+
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . X . X O 2 . |
$$ . . . X O . 1 |
$$ . . . X O O . |
$$ . . . X O 5 6 |
$$ . . . X O 4 3 |
$$ . . . X X X . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |[/go]

[Bill Spight]

I thought It was. But with Two other players questioning move I am not so sure now. The reading is further than what I can do now. But I think that I will make a life and death problem out of it to further explore why it is or isn't alive.

Scratch that! After looking at :b148: at T15, I was dead If I didn't use to secure life.

I really need to learn how to read! I guess that means more tsumego for me.

Tsumego is fine.

However. . . .

I really need to learn how to read! I guess that means more tsumego for me.

"More tsumego" is never ending...

Actually, even after your corner was dead, however killing it is not easy.

$$B Black to kill
$$ --------------+
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . X . X O . . |
$$ . . . X O . . |
$$ . . . X O . a |
$$ . . . X O . b |
$$ . . . X O . . |
$$ . . . X X B . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B Black to kill
$$ --------------+
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . X . X O . . |
$$ . . . X O . . |
$$ . . . X O . a |
$$ . . . X O . b |
$$ . . . X O . . |
$$ . . . X X B . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |[/go]

This problem appears in http://goproblems.com/prob.php3?id=19171

(Marking mine.)

Thanks for the link, jlt.

I took a look, and this problem is rated 6 dan. That rating may be a bit high, but if you stick to tsumego, it may be a while before you can read this position out. The key to this position and to the one at is the marked Black stone. To be confident of living, you either have to see specific eye points or see that White has enough space. (Typically going by space alone you need 8 open points to live. Rule of thumb.) enables Black to play a monkey jump to "a" or "b" and restrict White to 7 points or less. Even with no reading there is a high probability that Black to play can kill.

[Needo]

Well work got ugly and I am behind on my losses. On the bright side I am on problem 1089 on my Tsumego Pro app. I think that is around 9 hours at the rate of 2 problems per minute. I figure I would keep track of it here to have a better estimate of actual study time. Here is what I have learned from my time torturing myself with problems that look familiar (I have seen them before as many as 5 times) but I still can't read it all the way through to make the correct first move. I can only hold two virtual stones on the board at any time in my head. That means that I can only read 2 moves at any time. Earlier in this thread, I said I was reading only 3 moves ahead. I was wrong! These problems are rubbing my nose in that sad state of reality.



Ideally When doing the problems, I attempt to see what the whole sequence is going to be before placing my first stone. This is only the case about 25% of the time. The remainder of the time I play the 1st move and then see if that is going to get me on the right path. Most of these attempts result in failure even with problems that I am sure I have seen multiple times.(many multiple times ) I am pretty sure that the app is more likely to reuse problems that I have missed. I am just now up to 650 problems in the pool now. Up until problem 900 I was only drawing from a pool of 350. I added more problems to the pool because I did remember the solution to a many of the problems and I wanted to force myself to read.



I sincerely hope I can expand the number of virtual stones I can keep in my head. I have never considered this type of mental exercise before. I absolutely hated that electronic game called "Simon". And now I find that I need to build a similar skill. On the bright side, I can now do about 50 problems before my head starts hurting.

[dfan]

Ideally When doing the problems, I attempt to see what the whole sequence is going to be before placing my first stone. This is only the case about 25% of the time. The remainder of the time I play the 1st move and then see if that is going to get me on the right path.

This is super dangerous (I am prone to it as well) and if you notice it happening I would recommend quitting the app for the moment and coming back when you think you have the concentration to read it all out. In fact when I do tsumego I usually take a break any time I get a problem wrong, since it is a sign that I'm not paying as much attention as I should.

In a life-and-death or tesuji situation, you have to read to the end (or to a position with a known status) before you play your first move. If you don't and you play against an opponent who does, you will lose. You can get away with "This move looks pretty good, let's see what happens" a little more in other situations, like when you are just making good shape (or of course in a blitz game), but even then it is not really a good idea (unfortunately for me).

You will also find that if your tsumego strategy is "play a move that looks good and see if it's on the right path", you will hit a wall pretty soon because you're not capable of reading out the sequences that are necessary for harder problems. The whole point of harder problems (and of go in general!) is that there are multiple plausible moves and you can't tell which one is correct without reading. Trying multiple possible vital points until one of them is accepted is not going to train your skill, and of course doesn't work in a game!

[Bill Spight]

Ideally When doing the problems, I attempt to see what the whole sequence is going to be before placing my first stone. This is only the case about 25% of the time. The remainder of the time I play the 1st move and then see if that is going to get me on the right path.

This is super dangerous (I am prone to it as well) and if you notice it happening I would recommend quitting the app for the moment and coming back when you think you have the concentration to read it all out. In fact when I do tsumego I usually take a break any time I get a problem wrong, since it is a sign that I'm not paying as much attention as I should.

The fact that Needo is able to read the sequence out about 25% of the time indicates that the problems are too hard for him right now. Ideally, he should be able to read the sequence out about 50% of the time. Needo, find easier problems to work on or review the problems you have missed, or do both.

[dfan]

Ideally When doing the problems, I attempt to see what the whole sequence is going to be before placing my first stone. This is only the case about 25% of the time. The remainder of the time I play the 1st move and then see if that is going to get me on the right path.

This is super dangerous (I am prone to it as well) and if you notice it happening I would recommend quitting the app for the moment and coming back when you think you have the concentration to read it all out. In fact when I do tsumego I usually take a break any time I get a problem wrong, since it is a sign that I'm not paying as much attention as I should.

The fact that Needo is able to read the sequence out about 25% of the time indicates that the problems are too hard for him right now. Ideally, he should be able to read the sequence out about 50% of the time. Needo, find easier problems to work on or review the problems you have missed, or do both.

I read their statement as saying that they only tried to read the sequence out about 25% of the time (and otherwise just tried something that looked promising to see what would happen). Either way, doing simpler problems for now is a good idea!

[Needo]

The sad thing is these are the easiest problems on the app. I will have to exercise a little more patience and set the app down for a minute and look at the problem again before venturing a guess. I really do want to read out the whole sequence before playing.



Ultimately, I hope to train myself to hold more virtual stones in my mind and manipulate the positions quicker.



I noticed in Kirby's journal that he was recording a game from memory. I can't even tell what my first move was immediately after finishing a game. I feel like I am playing while missing a part of my brain that should be there. I just never noticed that it was missing before.

[Bki]

I personally don't like the app for "serious" tsumego solving (I just use the problems of the day for warmup). It's far easier to be thorough about solving them when you read the diagram from a book (and need to turn a page, or even worse, go check at the end for the solution). Though of course the best is not having the answers at all. Then you must thoroughly consider all the possible answers to your move before considering the problem solved. The elementary collection here is a good start for lots of easy problems without solution given (though the difficulty of the problems vary, some are easily solved at a glance, other can be pretty tough).

As far as memorizing your own games, I don't think people expect you to be able to do so, at your level, for games played on the internet. I know I certainly can't reliably do so. That said, the first few moves are often the hardest. Once you remember them it's easier to grasp the flow of the game.

[Bill Spight]

The sad thing is these are the easiest problems on the app.

You mentioned that you gave gotten past problem 1000. IMO it is not easy to come up with that many tsumego problems at your level. Maybe so, since today there are many problems available online, but when I was learning go that was not the case. I did fewer than 500 tsumego before reaching shodan. Maybe you should start over and do the easiest 500 problems again.

Also, some study of life and death may help Here is an online book: http://www.h-eba.com/heba/JITEN/jiten0-4.html It's in Japanese, but the diagrams are pretty self-explanatory.

Ultimately, I hope to train myself to hold more virtual stones in my mind and manipulate the positions quicker.

Conscious visualization is a different, but related skill to go reading. It is not strictly necessary. For instance, I am not good at conscious visualization, but I have been tested on spatial relationships and scored very well. Not that visualization exercises cannot be fun and beneficial, but visualization is not something to worry about.

I feel like I am playing while missing a part of my brain that should be there. I just never noticed that it was missing before.

A harsh judgement. You can still enjoy go and improve your game.

Good luck!