So this happened in a recent game, where I got a L+2 group (in theory alive with points) and played endgame descents thinking this was enough to get 8 points in that corner. Then my opponent played this :
And it seems that a and b are miai, and black is left with the choice of either fighting a ko (which I couldn't win in this game) or a seki (since white can either make B's eye false or make an eye himself and black is short of liberties). Fortunately even with the loss of point it was still enough to win the game, but clearly this shouldn't have happened.
Well first, I think I'm reading this corner correctly, but if I missed a way to live with points I do hope someone stronger will point it out. More importantly, then, is what would have been a better way to play the endgame to maximize the points I got from this corner.
Endgame for L+2 group?
-
Kirby
- Honinbo
- Posts: 9553
- Joined: Wed Feb 24, 2010 6:04 pm
- GD Posts: 0
- KGS: Kirby
- Tygem: 커비라고해
- Has thanked: 1583 times
- Been thanked: 1707 times
Re: Endgame for L+2 group?
I think you are correct about the seki (or ko). To avoid it, just make an eye before your liberties are filled.
be immersed
-
Bill Spight
- Honinbo
- Posts: 10905
- Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2010 1:24 pm
- Has thanked: 3651 times
- Been thanked: 3373 times
Re: Endgame for L+2 group?
Let me refer you to this Sensei's page. https://senseis.xmp.net/?L2GroupWithDescent 
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
-
Joaz Banbeck
- Judan
- Posts: 5546
- Joined: Sun Dec 06, 2009 11:30 am
- Rank: 1D AGA
- GD Posts: 1512
- Kaya handle: Test
- Location: Banbeck Vale
- Has thanked: 1080 times
- Been thanked: 1434 times
Re: Endgame for L+2 group?
Actually, it should happen. If you have inadequate ko threats, the best play by both sides is a seki.Bki wrote:...black is left with the choice of either fighting a ko (which I couldn't win in this game) or a seki ...but clearly this shouldn't have happened...
Look at it this way: a pro could not have played it better than you did. For several moves, you were playing like a pro.
Help make L19 more organized. Make an index: https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5207
-
Bill Spight
- Honinbo
- Posts: 10905
- Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2010 1:24 pm
- Has thanked: 3651 times
- Been thanked: 3373 times
Re: Endgame for L+2 group?
Actually, at least one of the descents was probably a mistake.Joaz Banbeck wrote:Actually, it should happen. If you have inadequate ko threats, the best play by both sides is a seki.Bki wrote:...black is left with the choice of either fighting a ko (which I couldn't win in this game) or a seki ...but clearly this shouldn't have happened...
Look at it this way: a pro could not have played it better than you did. For several moves, you were playing like a pro.
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
-
Joaz Banbeck
- Judan
- Posts: 5546
- Joined: Sun Dec 06, 2009 11:30 am
- Rank: 1D AGA
- GD Posts: 1512
- Kaya handle: Test
- Location: Banbeck Vale
- Has thanked: 1080 times
- Been thanked: 1434 times
Re: Endgame for L+2 group?
My comment was about the play starting from the OPs diagram.Bill Spight wrote:Actually, at least one of the descents was probably a mistake.Joaz Banbeck wrote:Actually, it should happen. If you have inadequate ko threats, the best play by both sides is a seki.Bki wrote:...black is left with the choice of either fighting a ko (which I couldn't win in this game) or a seki ...but clearly this shouldn't have happened...
Look at it this way: a pro could not have played it better than you did. For several moves, you were playing like a pro.
Help make L19 more organized. Make an index: https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5207
-
Bill Spight
- Honinbo
- Posts: 10905
- Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2010 1:24 pm
- Has thanked: 3651 times
- Been thanked: 3373 times
Re: Endgame for L+2 group?
Joaz Banbeck wrote:Actually, it should happen. If you have inadequate ko threats, the best play by both sides is a seki.Bki wrote:...black is left with the choice of either fighting a ko (which I couldn't win in this game) or a seki ...but clearly this shouldn't have happened...
Look at it this way: a pro could not have played it better than you did. For several moves, you were playing like a pro.
Thanks for making that clear.Joaz Banbeck wrote:My comment was about the play starting from the OPs diagram.Bill Spight wrote:Actually, at least one of the descents was probably a mistake.
It has been suggested that the problem arose only after he ignored White filling the last dame. It was probably before that.
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
-
Uberdude
- Judan
- Posts: 6727
- Joined: Thu Nov 24, 2011 11:35 am
- Rank: UK 4 dan
- GD Posts: 0
- KGS: Uberdude 4d
- OGS: Uberdude 7d
- Location: Cambridge, UK
- Has thanked: 436 times
- Been thanked: 3718 times
Re: Endgame for L+2 group?
I think Bki is simply saying that, had he known that the corner could become a seki, black playing a move there to ensure it is ~7 points of territory is thus a ~7 point gote move and bigger than the presumably smaller moves he played instead during this phase of the endgame. (This is correct.)Bki wrote:...but clearly this shouldn't have happened...
-
Bill Spight
- Honinbo
- Posts: 10905
- Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2010 1:24 pm
- Has thanked: 3651 times
- Been thanked: 3373 times
Re: Endgame for L+2 group?
Well, what is outside the corner matters for the endgame.Bki wrote:More importantly, then, is what would have been a better way to play the endgame to maximize the points I got from this corner.
For instance, a, b, or c is sente for White, but then, after securing the corner Black has a sente hane-connect.
For reference, here is a simpler position where Black has no sente. What is Black's play?
After
or Ba, the rest is miai. In the marked region, Black gets 6 pts. in the corner and WHite gets 1 pt. outside, for a net result to Black of 5 pts.
What is the result if Black plays a descent instead?
If
, 
causes difficulties for Black. 
leads to seki, possibly ko later. at 4 lets White make ko. This descent is not good.If
, threatens the corner. Black keeps sente, but the net result is 4 pts. for Black, 5 pts. for Black in the corner minus 1 pt. outside for White. This descent may be correct, depending on the rest of the board.White to play can hold the net result for Black to 3 pts., 5 pts. for Black in the corner minus 2 pts. for White outside. The Black descent at 1 prevents that with sente. This position is ambiguous, as Black can choose to play sente or gote.
here is an alternative, leading to the same net result. The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
-
Schachus
- Lives with ko
- Posts: 211
- Joined: Wed Jul 01, 2015 11:02 am
- Rank: KGS 1k EGF 2k
- GD Posts: 0
- KGS: Schachus12
- Has thanked: 16 times
- Been thanked: 62 times
Re: Endgame for L+2 group?
what aboutBill Spight wrote:
What is the result if Black plays a descent instead?
If
at 
?-
Bill Spight
- Honinbo
- Posts: 10905
- Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2010 1:24 pm
- Has thanked: 3651 times
- Been thanked: 3373 times
Re: Endgame for L+2 group?
You're right. I goofed.Schachus wrote:what aboutBill Spight wrote:
What is the result if Black plays a descent instead?
If
Thanks. So I guess
is next, then , assuming that Black cannot afford to play at 4. The net result is 4 pts. to Black with sente. Or, if 
plays elsewhere, 5 pts. to Black with gote. This descent is fine as far as points go, but the drawback is that White decides whether it is sente or gote, not Black.The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
-
Bki
- Lives with ko
- Posts: 218
- Joined: Sun Apr 12, 2015 6:59 am
- Rank: IGS 3k
- GD Posts: 0
- KGS: Bki
- IGS: mlbki
- Has thanked: 23 times
- Been thanked: 14 times
Re: Endgame for L+2 group?
Yes this is exactly what I mean. Clearly given that the descent allowed for a seki and weren't really sente, playing an inside move to make sure I was alive with points instead of one of them would have been better. Instead I was greedy and naively thought that they were enough to secure points. It's made even worse by the fact that there was no white point on one of the side so it's not like I even had a follow-up to descending.Uberdude wrote:I think Bki is simply saying that, had he known that the corner could become a seki, black playing a move there to ensure it is ~7 points of territory is thus a ~7 point gote move and bigger than the presumably smaller moves he played instead during this phase of the endgame. (This is correct.)Bki wrote:...but clearly this shouldn't have happened...