Time wasting with Go

dfan · Post by **dfan** » Mon Aug 12, 2019 4:54 pm

Joaz Banbeck wrote:At move 24, B16 is dual sente

[...]

There is no point in running along the 18th rank any further. You need to go two moves before you tenuki, so that the turn is not atari, like this:

[...]

But three moves gives him unnecessary influence:

[...]

This is the opposite of modern (post-2016) opening theory. You are a stronger player than I am, so you should do whatever you like, but it is useful to be aware of how strong players think about these positions these days.

The consensus is now that the

-

exchanges in your first diagram strengthen White far too much. Instead, strong players now generally push on the second line another time to make sure they are easily alive (as in your third diagram), then split on the left, claiming that White's "wall" is not actually that strong. One key point is that Black can peep at E15 in sente, helping his splitting group and worsening White's shape. (The strongest players/AIs often don't even split right away, claiming there are bigger moves elsewhere! That is too crazy for me.)

In fact, your third diagram is considered to be so good for Black that White generally doesn't play the hane at E17 anymore except in special circumstances, usually playing the keima at F17 or the extend at E16 instead.

Post by **Joaz Banbeck** » Mon Aug 12, 2019 6:22 pm

Damn computers!

DeprivedWaste · Post by **DeprivedWaste** » Mon Aug 12, 2019 10:36 pm

I sadly don't have time right now for a long response, but I just wanted to share this with y'all (a bit of history of the development of the 3-3 invasion after AlphaGo's emergence)

https://www.eurogofed.org/?id=127

Quotes:

"(...) Ever since, 3-3 has established itself as another option to deal with a hoshi. Numerous pros have been experimenting with 3-3, with the general idea to give the opponent a wall while ending in sente to play an extension that restricts the wall. The position below is one such example. (...)"
-
"This changed when Li Zhe 6p famously proclaimed that the 3-3 invasion's function was actually to rob the hoshi of its base, and that a simple kakari instead would be too easy on the hoshi.

Li Zhe demonstrated this impressively by invading at move 7 vs. Li Xuanhao 6p."

I hope someone finds the article as interesting as I did! I got to get going now

DeprivedWaste · Post by **DeprivedWaste** » Tue Aug 13, 2019 4:48 pm

Played not that much today, so I went over another game with LZ. This time from the IGS GoPanda2 server, where I play at the moment around 1k? (I so far have only played 11 games on it and stand on 8 wins and 3 defeats) I played black and it was again with Canadian Byo-yomi, if I recall correctly, but this time with slightly longer settings than usual.

I found my opponent through the automatch feature and was pleasently surprised when I saw that it was someone from my country, that had not happened before on IGS. So I was quite excited to play him.

I feel the playstyle on IGS, at least subjectively extrapolated from the 11 games I have played at my rank, is very different than from KGS, OGS or the Fox Go Server. It is more unfethered from the AI influence, which might be a strength or weakness, and more creative than KGS (I feel the players on KGS are also somewhat less influenced by AI than for example the players from OGS, but not as creative as IGS players, and instead play more old-styled fuseki and joseki (I have to admit I hate chinese fuseki and need to study it more) and Fox Go is a totally different beast.

I honestly like to play on IGS very much, simply because I like the UI so much, but sometimes I have a hard time to find a game, maybe I need to challenge individual players directly, instead of using the automatch feature.

As for my study regime, today I barely did any tsumego (after posting I'll still do a few before heading to bed) but the internet go school and studying / memorizing pro games is progressing as always, and I will hopefully find time this week to again attend my local go club.

I am not that proud of the games ending, I didn't like how I handled the top even though white messed up at the end, or how I reduced the bottom (I want to take a closer look at a later point with LZ, if someone has some suggestions I would gladly hear them) the same counts for whites invasion. I think black played very slack towards the end, I was not reading deep enough when I played the peep at the bottom, which I think lead to suboptimal play.

DeprivedWaste · Post by **DeprivedWaste** » Wed Aug 14, 2019 3:02 am

I played 2-3 games right now (I should have played only two and taken a bit of time to study and do for example tsumego), anyway I lost all of them.

I have to admit I have quite the losing streak at the moment on OGS, and I don't know when it will get better, so I really wanted to get ahead, win this game and squash my losing streak especially because it was against an OGS 2D.

Alas I had a chance in the game because white choose to play an early endgame move in a tense situation, I even knew it was a mistake in the game, I knew I could pull ahead if played it somewhat right, but as you know it did not work out, because like I said before, I lost all my games.

Even after messing it up, I had still the chance to at least pull even with white with a very obvious move (S17), a move I saw, a move that looked honte, it looked beautiful in its simplicity, a move the old masters would have played and the old amateurs, but of course I messed that up too and white got a good chunk out of the corner that should only have been shared, because I choose to play a move in the centre instead. Shortly after I resigned.

I played black.

Uberdude · Post by **Uberdude** » Wed Aug 14, 2019 3:45 am

About o6 vs the ladder, the ladder is better if you can play it because then the 3 stones are strong and q6 is captured, so you are threatening a severe attack on white at n3 if he tenukis, so gote at m4 is pretty much mandatory, but with o6 white tenuki is much more playable because q6 aji means its a lot harder for black to attack white given he has resources like p3 sente or even p5/p6 and fighting. In fact if the ladder is good for black then white's joseki choice is a little bad (unless there's a devastating ladder breaker to make up for a trade), either q2 should be s4 (or bots seem to like t5 too but it reverts!) or if q2 then o3 should be p5 to avoid clean ladder capture.

DeprivedWaste · Post by **DeprivedWaste** » Sat Aug 17, 2019 10:16 am

Thank you for your comments Uberdude, I really want to have these standard josekis down before I attend the tournament at the end of the month.

Anyways, a few days have gone by since I posted here last. I attended my local club again this week, and played a lot of online games. On OGS I am still on a semi-losing streak, even though I feel I already got a deeper understanding of the game, sometimes I also lost won games by blunders but that happens to everyone.

Nontheless I lost two ranks and am now 4k on OGS, while I still can hold my own against IGS 2k and 1k (still 1k?) and today I played again on FoxGo for a change, and won against another 2D. While reviewing the game with Lizzie, I realized how badly I did in the opening and early middlegame (I knew it wasn't optimal, but didn't think the win chances were that low) and could only catch up due to my opponent blundering i.e. not reading far enough in a sequence thinking he could cut off one of my groups. I reviewed the game rather fast with LZ, so I have not added a lot of comments.

Another game I played this week was against a 1k on OGS, the opening as you'll see was quite weird, with white taking the sides, instead of playing around the corners (maybe the thought from white behind this was giving black some sort of handicap), so I was satisfied with the opening (LZ agrees and estimates a win chance for black to be around 80% at move 33) but I ended up losing a lot in the endgame and probably playing overly timid because I was worried about my centre group and some really non-sense moves in the endgame.

Bill Spight · Post by **Bill Spight** » Sat Aug 17, 2019 10:50 am

DeprivedWaste wrote:I really want to have these standard josekis down before I attend the tournament at the end of the month.

Only a few hundred joseki to go.

Good luck at the tournament.

DeprivedWaste · Post by **DeprivedWaste** » Sat Aug 17, 2019 11:08 am

True

that would be a bit much, I wanted to say the more commonly played 3-3 invasion josekis and not all existing josekis!

Edit: And thanks for the good luck wishes

DeprivedWaste · Post by **DeprivedWaste** » Sat Aug 17, 2019 2:53 pm

I stayed home tonight (not feeling well) and decided to play a bit on KGS, to my surprise the automatch feature matched me up against a 4k (while I am a 2k on KGS) so that meant going against 2HC stones.

In the past I really disliked handicap games, I don't have that feeling anymore, I appreciate them now for what they are. so I was happy for the challenge (reminder on OGS I am a 4k myself).

To my surprise, I had opportunity to play a few variations I learned on Guo Juan's InternetGoSchool! So even though I messed up and pressed a running group of his into one of my own weak groups, I am still very satisfied with it.

The game itself was very exciting, with a big early seki due to both players blundering a bit and practically ended with a dead corner from black due to him missing the danger of the hidden potential of two white stones that were in atari. That said it was also a very fast game (short main time iirc and 3x10 second byo-yomi), I rarely play longer games on KGS but plan to try that out too.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc Move 1 wasn't new to me, but move 5 I first really learned through the IGS. \nI was very satisfied with trying it out in a live game $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . X . O X . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . O . X 5 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 2 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 4 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Continuation from the game

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc Game position at move 21 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . X . O X 5 1 3 . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . O 4 X O 2 9 | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X 7 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X 8 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 6 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

gennan · Post by **gennan** » Sun Aug 18, 2019 2:29 am

I think move 4 in that variation is soft, giving white many forcing moves to block the right side and create great thickness.
This is what I learned from In-Seong as joseki (and from there, black may continue on the upper side):

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . X . O X . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . O 4 X 6 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . 1 2 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Black gets a nice and thick corner territory, bute white gets a powerful group that radiates influence to the whole board and the black stone at M17 ends up as a liability for black.
So still, I think it would have been better for black to play normally on move 6 in the game, which is jumping to Q14. Playing at M17 was too greedy IMO.

Bill Spight · Post by **Bill Spight** » Sun Aug 18, 2019 5:03 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc What now? Not that I know. $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . X . O X . 6 . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . O . X 5 7 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 2 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 4 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

lightvector · Post by **lightvector** » Sun Aug 18, 2019 9:10 am

Bill's move is interesting. Both KG and LZ seem to roughly agree that the following sorts of variations are expected.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 2 6 . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . X 7 O X . X 1 . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . O 8 X O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 B . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 4 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

One possibility after that (black extend):

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . 2 . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . X O O X . X O . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . O X X O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 1 . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . 6 5 b . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

White aims to net around 'a' or to cut at 'b'. The white corner is unsettled but it is hard for black to kill yet because it can race with either of the two black groups and/or fight ko. Some variations result in black killing the white corner but white getting outside forcing moves, influence, or 2 consecutive moves elsewhere. Or black does not and maybe later white comes back and lives.

Black is not bad though. KG and LZ think that if black is as good of a fighter as white here, objectively black is still doing well.

Another possibility after the first diagram (black hane):

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . 9 . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . X O O X . X O . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . O X X O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 1 2 4 . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 7 3 5 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc And then $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . X 3 . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . X O O X . X O . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . O X X O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O X 1 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X 5 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X 2 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X O O . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X X X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Now black should tenuki. Both black and white have only one eye, so the corner may become a seki in the future. If black insists on trying to kill white from here, the best possible is only some flavor of ko, which is not as big as playing elsewhere now. Again, objectively black is still fine, if he can handle the complexities as well as white.

There are also other variations in this fight too, that all the above diagrams don't cover, as well as other possible move orderings that transpose to the same kinds of lines.

Uberdude · Post by **Uberdude** » Sun Aug 18, 2019 12:07 pm

This attach and then corner cut sequence after they kick your approach and then pincer instead of jump is one that I very often use in high handicap games, particularly against the 'turtle'/'bunker' style of player who thinks all they need to do in a 9 stone game is not die and then they win. You then try to use the thickness to kill the side hoshi stones (or make them live so submissively you can still profit and win). Having said that, it is an alive corner with a fair few points with no scope for them to be stupid and kill themselves so there is less of the board unsettled where you can catch up. Something to not is hanging connection of 10 here is often better than solid: in terms of endgame if black later cuts at a the cut is already defended, and it puts more pressure on the marked side hoshi stone if present (e.g. b aims to connect), though it does leaves a peep from the centre at c. Worth noting that even if you just connect at d after c then e cut doesn't work (answer at f), though then black g can link under due to white liberty shortage. Of course the kind of weak player who
(hitherto, AI's changed it) kicks then pincers hopefully doesn't start having the attacking mindset like this.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc Common handicap game sequence $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . g . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . O X 5 1 3 . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . O 4 X O 2 9 | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . e O X 7 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . h . O X 8 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . f c d 6 a . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . B . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Black's shape attack at h above is quite annoying though, so I will often play this move:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc Preserving my eyeshape $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . O X 5 1 3 . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . O 4 X O 2 9 | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X 7 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X 8 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 . . 6 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

If a turtler plays this in one corner, then I might try to bully them even more in the next corner with 6 given their apparent predilection for keeping the corner:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc You really like corners? Ok, please have an even worse one. $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . 1 . . X . O X X X X . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . O O X . . X | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 6 8 0 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 7 9 X . 4 . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . 3 2 . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Uberdude · Post by **Uberdude** » Sun Aug 18, 2019 12:32 pm

About Bill's extension, I've not studied or played this much against equal opponents (usually submissive much weaker ones in high-handis) but I think it's probably a strong resistance when the pincer is the close one-space low, as then black o18 is sente like lightvector showed so white 9 is not insta-killing the black top group. With looser/high pincers it's harder for black to fight like this, though still non-trivial for white against an equal-strength fighter.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc What now? Not that I know. $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . X . O X . 6 9 . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . O . X 5 7 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 2 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 4 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

There was one of the AlphaGo Master online games, vs Ke Jie in fact, where AG played the kick and then tenuki (3-space low pincer which combo-ed as an extension from another approach), and Ke Jie played this attach and AG allowed the forcing moves. Ke Jie then didn't defend the cut (must have thought it too slow) and invaded on the top, though white got sente after that fight ended in a trade and cut to make a large left side and won by resign soon after.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 4 2 6 O X . . . O . 9 . O X . . . . | $$ | . 3 1 O 5 X . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . 8 O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . | $$ | . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . X O . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X O X . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . . | $$ | . O O O . . . . . . . O O X . . . . . | $$ | . X O X X . . . . , X X O . O X X . . | $$ | . O X . X . . X . . . . O . O X O O . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

There was a recent pro game, maybe by Ke Jie (white) as well, where the following shape happened. It puzzled me why white 5 didn't cut and allowed black to defend the corner weakness aginst the sacrifice and forcing moves, maybe it was due to it being an overplay and Bill's extend refuting it, but I didn't investigate and can't find the game now.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ +-------------- $$ | . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . $$ | . . 6 . X O . $$ | . . . X . O . $$ | . . 2 1 . . . $$ | . . 4 3 . . . $$ | . . 5 . . . . $$ | . . . . . . .[/go]

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