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 Post subject: AI & Igo Hatsuyoron 120
Post #1 Posted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 1:34 am 
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The facilities of ZBaduk allowed me to study what LeelaZero and KataGo currently might be "thinking" of Igo Hatsuyoron 120.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Igo Hatsuyoron 120 (Black to move)
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X O O . X O . . . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . X . O . . . X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . X O , . . . . . O . X . O O , . . . |
$$ | . . X X . X . . . . O X X . X X O O . |
$$ | . X . O . O . . . . . . X . X O . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . O O . . O O . O X . . . . |
$$ | O . . X . . . . . . . . . . X X X X X |
$$ | . . . X . . . O . . O . X X X X . O O |
$$ | X O O , . X . . . O . X . O O O O . . |
$$ | X . . O X . . . . O . X . . O . . X X |
$$ | X . . O X . . . X O . . . . . X X O O |
$$ | X X . . X . . O . O . . . . . . X X O |
$$ | . O O X O X . . . O . . X . O . . O O |
$$ | . . X . . X . . . . X . . . X . O O O |
$$ | O X X , X . . O . , O O O . O X O . X |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . X X O X |
$$ | O . X . . . . . O . . . O X O X . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . O X X X . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


According to Joachim Meinhardt (from our solution team), these two programs' behaviour is similar to what he encountered by using "Ah Q Go" a few months ago.

The results seem to be independent of komi (7.5 points used by the programs vs. no komi in the problem), most likely because any mistake in the solution sequence costs much more than that.
By the way: I am looking forward to trying "no komi" with KataGo some months in the future.

Those who want to try it on their own may use the SGF attached.
Please note that the first 142 moves contain the problem's setup.

In LifeIn19x19, our solution (as of 2011) is commented here.


Attachments:
2017_OurNewSolution4AI.sgf [2.23 KiB]
Downloaded 24 times

_________________
The really most difficult Go problem ever: http://igohatsuyoron120.de/index.htm
Igo Hatsuyoron #120 (still unresolved by professionals, maybe solved by three amateurs)

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 Post subject: Re: AI & Igo Hatsuyoron 120
Post #2 Posted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 1:45 am 
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Good understanding of the seki in the lower right corner.

The creation process of the seki in the lower right corner is handled correctly, ...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c B 143 = B 1 (original solution)
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X O O . X O . . . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . X . O . . . X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . X O , . . . . . O . X . O O , . . . |
$$ | . . X X . X . . . . O X X . X X O O . |
$$ | . X . O . O . . . . . . X . X O . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . O O . . O O . O X . . . . |
$$ | O . . X . . . . . . . . . . X X X X X |
$$ | . . . X . . . O . . O . X X X X . O O |
$$ | X O O , . X . . . O . X . O O O O . . |
$$ | X . . O X . . . . O . X . . O . . X X |
$$ | X . . O X . . . X O . . . . . X X O O |
$$ | X X . . X . . O . O . . . . . . X X O |
$$ | . O O X O X . . . O . . X . O . . O O |
$$ | . . X . . X . . . . X . . . X B O O O |
$$ | O X X , X . . O . , O O O . O X O . X |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . X X O X |
$$ | O . X . . . . . O . . . O X O X . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . O X X X . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

... starting with the solid connection at Q5, ...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c B 157 = B 15
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X O O . X O . . . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . X . O . . . X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . X O , . . . . . O . X . O O , . . . |
$$ | . . X X . X . . . . O X X . X X O O . |
$$ | . X . O . O . . . . . . X . X O . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . O O . . O O . O X . . . . |
$$ | O . . X . . . . . . . . . . X X X X X |
$$ | . . . X . . . O . . O . X X X X . O O |
$$ | X O O , . X . . . O . X . O O O O . . |
$$ | X . . O X . . . . O . X . . O . X X X |
$$ | X . . O X . . . X O . X O . B X X O O |
$$ | X X . . X . . O . O . X O ? . . X X O |
$$ | . O O X O X . . . O . X X O O O X O O |
$$ | . . X . . X . . . . X . O X X X O O O |
$$ | O X X , X . . O . , O O O . O X O O X |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . X X O X |
$$ | O . X . . . . . O . . . O X O X . O . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . O X X X . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

... sometimes including changes in the order of moves, as here with P8 instead of Q7.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c B 161 = B 19
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X O O . X O . . . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . X . O . . . X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . X O , . . . . . O . X . O O , . . . |
$$ | . . X X . X . . . . O X X . X X O O . |
$$ | . X . O . O . . . . . . X . X O . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . O O . . O O . O X . . . . |
$$ | O . . X . . . . . . . . . . X X X X X |
$$ | . . . X . . . O . . O . X X X X . O O |
$$ | X O O , . X . . . O . X . O O O O . . |
$$ | X . . O X . . . . O . X . B O . X X X |
$$ | X . . O X . . . X O . X O O X X X O O |
$$ | X X . . X . . O . O . X O . O . X X O |
$$ | . O O X O X . . . O . X X O O O X O O |
$$ | . . X . . X . . . . X . O X X X O O O |
$$ | O X X , X . . O . , O O O . O X O O X |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . X X O X |
$$ | O . X . . . . . O . . . O X O X . O . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . O X X X . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Even my second throw-in at O9 is choosen.

_________________
The really most difficult Go problem ever: http://igohatsuyoron120.de/index.htm
Igo Hatsuyoron #120 (still unresolved by professionals, maybe solved by three amateurs)


Last edited by Cassandra on Thu Sep 12, 2019 8:33 am, edited 1 time in total.

This post by Cassandra was liked by: Bill Spight
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 Post subject: Re: AI & Igo Hatsuyoron 120
Post #3 Posted: Thu Sep 12, 2019 8:33 am 
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Poor understanding of the hanezeki.

Everything is fine with the growth of the hanezeki's tail, until ...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c B 179 = B 37
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X O O . X O . . . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . X . O . . . X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . X O , . . . . . O . X . O O , . . . |
$$ | . . X X . X . . . . O X X . X X O O . |
$$ | . X . O . O . . . . . . X . X O . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . O O . . O O . O X . . . . |
$$ | O . . X . . . . . . . . . . X X X X X |
$$ | . . . X . . . O . . O . X X X X . O O |
$$ | X O O , . X . . . O . X X O O O O . . |
$$ | X . . O X . . . . O . X O O O . X X X |
$$ | X . . O X . . . X O . X O O X X X O O |
$$ | X X . . X . . O . O . X O . O . X X O |
$$ | . O O X O X . . . O . X X O O O X O O |
$$ | . . X . . X . . . . X . O X X X O O O |
$$ | O X X , X . . O Z O O O O X O X O O X |
$$ | . . . . O X . O X X X X X . O X X O X |
$$ | O . X . . . ? . O O O O O X O X . O X |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . O X X X . O . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

... Black misses the important kikashi at G2 and plays at J4, instead, continuing with the tail.
Without this kikashi (it must be played before the Crosscut Sequence) Black will not get enough territory in the lower left corner to win the problem.

The tail must not be blocked, but ...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c W 186 = W 44
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X O O . X O . . . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . X . O . . . X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . X O , . . . . . O . X . O O , . . . |
$$ | . . X X . X . . . . O X X . X X O O . |
$$ | . X . O . O . . . . . . X . X O . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . O O . . O O . O X . . . . |
$$ | O . . X . . . . . . . . . . X X X X X |
$$ | . . . X . . . O . . O . X X X X . O O |
$$ | X O O , . X . . . O . X X O O O O . . |
$$ | X . . O X . . . . O . X O O O . X X X |
$$ | X . . O X . . . X O . X O O X X X O O |
$$ | X X . . X . . O P O . X O . O . X X O |
$$ | . O O X O X . ? X O . X X O O O X O O |
$$ | . . X . . X . O X O X . O X X X O O O |
$$ | O X X , X . . O X O O O O X O X O O X |
$$ | . . . . O X . O X X X X X . O X X O X |
$$ | O . X . . . X O O O O O O X O X . O X |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . O X X X . O . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

... KataGo does so with move W 186 (= 44) at J7, a fatal mistake.
White should have connected at H6, instead.

Both programs are not immune against this mistake during the further course of the tail building sequence. Further details will be shown later.

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The really most difficult Go problem ever: http://igohatsuyoron120.de/index.htm
Igo Hatsuyoron #120 (still unresolved by professionals, maybe solved by three amateurs)


Last edited by Cassandra on Thu Sep 12, 2019 9:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: AI & Igo Hatsuyoron 120
Post #4 Posted: Thu Sep 12, 2019 9:09 am 
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Black has a fatal inclination to R2 (/ R1) in the hanezeki.

Both programs' unfortunate passion for playing in the hanezeki first breaks out with KataGo.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c B 189 = B 47
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X O O . X O . . . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . X . O . . . X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . X O , . . . . . O . X . O O , . . . |
$$ | . . X X . X . . . . O X X . X X O O . |
$$ | . X . O . O . . . . . . X . X O . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . O O . . O O . O X . . . . |
$$ | O . . X . . . . . . . . . . X X X X X |
$$ | . . . X . . . O . . O . X X X X . O O |
$$ | X O O , . X . . . O . X X O O O O . . |
$$ | X . . O X . . . ? O . X O O O . X X X |
$$ | X . . O X . . O X O . X O O X X X O O |
$$ | X X . . X . . O X O . X O . O . X X O |
$$ | . O O X O X . O X O . X X O O O X O O |
$$ | . . X . . X . O X O X . O X X X O O O |
$$ | O X X , X . . O X O O O O X O X O O X |
$$ | . . . . O X . O X X X X X . O X X O X |
$$ | O . X . . . X O O O O O O X O X Z O X |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . O X X X . O . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Black's move at R2 (or R1) is a fatal mistake.

If we let KataGo explicitely consider how to move next with White, ...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c W 190 (Var B 189) = W 48 (Var B 47)
$$ ----+---------------------------------------+
$$ - v - . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . -
$$ - a - . . . . . . . X O O . X O . . . . O . -
$$ - r - . . . . . X . O . . . X . . . . O . . -
$$ - . - . X O , . . . . . O . X . O O , . . . -
$$ - . - . . X X . X . . . . O X X . X X O O . -
$$ - . - . X . O . O . . . . . . X . X O . . . -
$$ - . - . O O O . . O O . . O O . O X . . . . -
$$ - . - O . . X . . . . . . . . . . X X X X X -
$$ - . - . . . X . . . O . . O . X X X X . O O -
$$ - . - X O O , . X . . . O . X X O O O O . . -
$$ - . - X . . O X . . . W O . X O O O . X X X -
$$ - . - X . . O X . . O X O . X O O X X X O O -
$$ - . - X X . . X . . O X O . X O . O . X X O -
$$ - . - . O O X O X . O X O . X X O O O X O O -
$$ - . - . . X . . X . O X O X . O X X X O O O -
$$ - . - O X X , X . . O X O O O O X O X O O X -
$$ - . - . . . . O X . O X X X X X . O X X O X -
$$ - . - O . X . . . X O O O O O O X O X 1 O X -
$$ - . - . X . . . . . . . . . . O X X X . O . -
$$ ----+---------------------------------------+[/go]

... the correct reply at J9 (aka L9 here) is preferred, having a win rate of (only) 43 %.
Black's large group in the upper right is dead, so the game is over hereafter.

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

The above mentioned behaviour can also be encountered with LeelaZero:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c W 192 = W 50
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X O O . X O . . . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . X . O . . . X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . X O , . . . . . O . X . O O , . . . |
$$ | . . X X . X . . . . O X X . X X O O . |
$$ | . X . O . O . . . . . . X . X O . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . O O . . O O . O X . . . . |
$$ | O . . X . . . . . . . . . . X X X X X |
$$ | . . . X . . . O P . O . X X X X . O O |
$$ | X O O , . X . ? X O . X X O O O O . . |
$$ | X . . O X . . O X O . X O O O . X X X |
$$ | X . . O X . . O X O . X O O X X X O O |
$$ | X X . . X . . O X O . X O . O . X X O |
$$ | . O O X O X . O X O . X X O O O X O O |
$$ | . . X . . X . O X O X . O X X X O O O |
$$ | O X X , X . . O X O O O O X O X O O X |
$$ | . . . . O X . O X X X X X . O X X O X |
$$ | O . X . . . X O O O O O O X O X . O X |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . O X X X . O . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

We already know that blocking the path of the tail (with W J11 here) is a fatal mistake.

LeelaZero's preferred continuation ...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc W 1 - B 6 (Var W 192) = W 1 - B 6 (Var W 50)
$$ ----+---------------------------------------+
$$ - v - . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . -
$$ - a - . . . . . . . X O O . X O . . . . O . -
$$ - r - . . . . . X . O . . . X . . . . O . . -
$$ - . - . X O , . . . . . O . X . O O , . . . -
$$ - . - . . X X . X . . . . O X X . X X O O . -
$$ - . - . X . O . O . . . . . . X . X O . . . -
$$ - . - . O O O . . O O . . O O . O X . . . . -
$$ - . - O . . X . . . . . . . . . . X X X X X -
$$ - . - . . . X . . . O 1 . O . X X X X 2 O O -
$$ - . - X O O , . X . ? X O . X X O O O O 3 . -
$$ - . - X . . O X . . O X O . X O O O . X X X -
$$ - . - X . . O X . . O X O . X O O X X X O O -
$$ - . - X X . . X . . O X O . X O 5 O 4 X X O -
$$ - . - . O O X O X . O X O . X X O O O X O O -
$$ - . - . . X . . X . O X O X . O X X X O O O -
$$ - . - O X X , X . . O X O O O O X O X O O X -
$$ - . - . . . . O X . O X X X X X . O X X O X -
$$ - . - O . X . . . X O O O O O O X O X Z O X -
$$ - . - . X . . . . . . . . . . O X X X . O . -
$$ ----+---------------------------------------+[/go]

... begins with the forcing moves of B2 (by the way: should be at 3, instead) and B4.
Nothing very serious has happened with these forcing moves, although these moves should be played later in the solution sequence, at this moment avoiding the unnecessary loss of some ko threats.

But unfortunately, Black continues with the move at R2 (aka T2) in the hanezeki.
LeelaZero gives a winrate for Black of 57 % for Black's final move.

For White, ...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc W 7 (Var W 192) = W 7 (Var W 50)
$$ ----+---------------------------------------+
$$ - v - . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . -
$$ - a - . . . . . . . X O O . X O . . . . O . -
$$ - r - . . . . . X . O . . . X . . . . O . . -
$$ - . - . X O , . . . . . O . X . O O , . . . -
$$ - . - . . X X . X . . . . O X X . X X O O . -
$$ - . - . X . O . O . . . . . . X . X O . . . -
$$ - . - . O O O . . O O . . O O . O X . . . . -
$$ - . - O . . X . . . . . . . . . . X X X X X -
$$ - . - . . . X . . . O O . O . X X X X X O O -
$$ - . - X O O , . X . W X O . X X O O O O O . -
$$ - . - X . . O X . . O X O . X O O O . X X X -
$$ - . - X . . O X . . O X O . X O O X X X O O -
$$ - . - X X . . X . . O X O . X O O O X X X O -
$$ - . - . O O X O X . O X O . X X O O O X O O -
$$ - . - . . X . . X . O X O X . O X X X O O O -
$$ - . - O X X , X . . O X O O O O X O X O O X -
$$ - . - . . . . O X . O X X X X X . O X X O X -
$$ - . - O . X . . . X O O O O O O X O X X O X -
$$ - . - . X . . . . . . . . . . O X X X . O . -
$$ ----+---------------------------------------+[/go]

... LeelaZero also prefers the correct reply at H10 (aka K10).

In the candidate's moves list, this move can be understood to be the "only" move (other candidates have only a few playouts).
LeeleZero gives a win rate about 50 % for White's move here.

_________________
The really most difficult Go problem ever: http://igohatsuyoron120.de/index.htm
Igo Hatsuyoron #120 (still unresolved by professionals, maybe solved by three amateurs)


Last edited by Cassandra on Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: AI & Igo Hatsuyoron 120
Post #5 Posted: Thu Sep 12, 2019 9:43 am 
Honinbo

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Very interesting. Many thanks. :)

However, there are a couple of things about the bots' mistakes. First, the main virtue of today's top bots lies in evaluation, not the calculation of variations. My first thought when I saw the title of this thread was, "Did they actually solve it?" :o Alas, no.

Second, komi may be a factor in some of the errors. For instance, why should Black play the peep at G-02 if it leads to a loss, like everything else? (Actually, today's bots seem to like to play kikashi early, so I was surprised that it did not make that play. ;)) It might be interesting to try out KataGo's no komi option sooner rather than later. :)

Still, an interesting thread, especially as today's bots were not built to handle such positions. ;)

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Post #6 Posted: Fri Sep 13, 2019 2:21 am 
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Dear Bill, thank you very much for your kind comment.

I will first continue with posting several further observations, before trying to give some speculations what might be the reasoning for the AI's behaviour. For doing so, I will assume human thinking, being well aware of the fact that this does not match AI-thinking.

Bill Spight wrote:
Still, an interesting thread, especially as today's bots were not built to handle such positions. ;)

Inoue Dosetsu Inseki knew that over 300 years ago ;-)

However, I was very surprised that now the AI found the initial sequence for creating the hanezeki, what Fujisawa's study group took so long to do.

Following your statement above, I still doubt Fan Hui's remark that (the game playing version of) AlphaGo would have been able to really solve Igo Hatsuyoron 120.

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The really most difficult Go problem ever: http://igohatsuyoron120.de/index.htm
Igo Hatsuyoron #120 (still unresolved by professionals, maybe solved by three amateurs)

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Post #7 Posted: Fri Sep 13, 2019 2:41 am 
Honinbo

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Cassandra wrote:
I was very surprised that now the AI found the initial sequence for creating the hanezeki, what Fujisawa's study group took so long to do.


Very interesting. :)

Quote:
Following your statement above, I still doubt Fan Hui's remark that (the game playing version of) AlphaGo would have been able to really solve Igo Hatsuyoron 120.


He was a cheerleader for AlphaGo.

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 Post subject: Re: AI & Igo Hatsuyoron 120
Post #8 Posted: Fri Sep 13, 2019 3:58 am 
Judan

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Are you guiding these bots by playing out sequences and asking for their views after the initial position, or just showing the initial position and letting them read deeply from there?

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Post #9 Posted: Fri Sep 13, 2019 9:15 am 
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Uberdude wrote:
Are you guiding these bots by playing out sequences and asking for their views after the initial position, or just showing the initial position and letting them read deeply from there?

I started from the position after move 142 of the modified (";B[]" and ";W[]" instead AB[] and AW[]) SGF that contains the sequence of our solution by using the option "Analyze this" in ZBaduk.
This will make the AI evaluate the next move.

When I got the feeling that the result of this evaluation was quite "stable" (e.g. there was a move with x.000 playouts, and all other candidates shown had only y00 playouts, or even less / one candidate move had much more playouts than all others), I advanced to the next move (of our solution sequence, not the AI's preferred move) by clicking ">".

For the variations shown, I clicked the first move of it on the board, thereafter following each of the AI's preferred moves until the end of the variation.

All results of the analysis were still available (unless I closed the browser), so I made screenshots for every move analyzed so far. There were several sessions, each starting with the (first) position of the solution sequence not yet analyzed.

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The really most difficult Go problem ever: http://igohatsuyoron120.de/index.htm
Igo Hatsuyoron #120 (still unresolved by professionals, maybe solved by three amateurs)

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 Post subject: Re: AI & Igo Hatsuyoron 120
Post #10 Posted: Sun Sep 15, 2019 3:39 am 
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Black has a fatal inclination to O3 in the hanezeki (also often after inserting the R11 / S10 exchange).

The programs' passion for mistakenly connecting the hanezeki's tail with a move at O3 (therewith capturing three White stones) is shown here with LeelaZero at move B 199 = B 57 (orinal solution sequence).

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c B 199 = B 57
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X O O . X O . . . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . X . O . . . X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . X O , . . . . . O . X . O O , . . . |
$$ | . . X X . X . . . . O X X . X X O O . |
$$ | . X . O . O . . . . . . X . X O . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . O O . ? O O . O X . . . . |
$$ | O . . X . . . . O X O . . . X X X X X |
$$ | . . . X . . . O X X O . X X X X . O O |
$$ | X O O , . X . O X O O X X O O O O . . |
$$ | X . . O X . . O X O . X O O O . X X X |
$$ | X . . O X . . O X O . X O O X X X O O |
$$ | X X . . X . . O X O . X O . O . X X O |
$$ | . O O X O X . O X O . X X O O O X O O |
$$ | . . X . . X . O X O X . O X X X O O O |
$$ | O X X , X . . O X O O O O X O X O O X |
$$ | . . . . O X . O X X X X X Z O X X O X |
$$ | O . X . . . X O O O O O O X O X . O X |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . O X X X . O . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

This move is a fatal mistake. Black should have continued with K13.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c W 200 (Var B 199) = = W 58 (Var B 57)
$$ +-------------------------------------------+
$$ - v - . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . -
$$ - a - . . . . . . . X O O . X O . . . . O . -
$$ - r - . . . . . X . O . . . X . . . . O . . -
$$ - . - . X O , . . . . . O . X . O O , . . . -
$$ - . - . . X X . X . . . . O X X . X X O O . -
$$ - . - . X . O . O . . . . . . X . X O . . . -
$$ - . - . O O O . . O O . . O O . O X . . . . -
$$ - . - O . . X . . . . O X O . . . X X X X X -
$$ - . - . . . X . . . O X X O . X X X X . O O -
$$ - . - X O O , . X . O X O O X X O O O O . . -
$$ - . - X . . O X . . O X O . X O O O . X X X -
$$ - . - X . . O X . . O X O . X O O X X X O O -
$$ - . - X X . . X . . O X O . X O . O . X X O -
$$ - . - . O O X O X . O X O . X X O O O X O O -
$$ - . - . . X . . X . O X O X . O X X X O O O -
$$ - . - O X X , X . . O X O O O O X . X O O X -
$$ - . - . . . . O X . O X X X X X X W X X O X -
$$ - . - O . X . . . X O O O O O O X . X . O X -
$$ - . - . X . . . . . . . . . . O X X X . O . -
$$ +-------------------------------------------+[/go]

When entering the variation, White is occupying the vital point of the three-point nakade.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c B 201 - W 206 (Var B 199) = = B 59 - W 64 (Var B 57)
$$ +-------------------------------------------+
$$ - v - . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . -
$$ - a - . . . . . . . X O O . X O . . . . O . -
$$ - r - . . . . . X . O . . . X . . . . O . . -
$$ - . - . X O , . . . . . O . X . O O , . . . -
$$ - . - . . X X . X . . . . O X X . X X O O . -
$$ - . - . X . O . O . . . . . . X . X O . . . -
$$ - . - . O O O . . O O . . O O . O X . . . . -
$$ - . - O . . X . . . . O X O . . . X X X X X -
$$ - . - . . . X . . . O X X O . X X X X 1 O O -
$$ - . - X O O , . X . O X O O X X O O O O 2 . -
$$ - . - X . . O X . . O X O . X O O O . X X X -
$$ - . - X . . O X . . O X O . X O O X X X O O -
$$ - . - X X . . X . . O X O . X O 4 O 3 X X O -
$$ - . - . O O X O X . O X O . X X O O O X O O -
$$ - . - . . X . . X . O X O X . O X X X O O O -
$$ - . - O X X , X . . O X O O O O X . X O O X -
$$ - . - . . . . O X . O X X X X X X O X X O X -
$$ - . - O . X . . . X O O O O O O X . X . O X -
$$ - . - . X . . . . . . . . . . O X X X 5 O 6 -
$$ +-------------------------------------------+[/go]

The sequence of first forcing with 1 and 3, thereafter playing at R1 / R2 (aka T1 / T2) in the corner is already known to us.

As Bill pointed out, the AI is very fond of EARLY forcing moves. Capturing three Black stones with W 6 in the lower right corner is a mistake, however.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c B 207 - B 209 (Var B 199) = = B 65 - W 67 (Var B 57)
$$ +-------------------------------------------+
$$ - v - . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . -
$$ - a - . . . . . . . X O O . X O . . . . O . -
$$ - r - . . . . . X . O . . . X . . . . O . . -
$$ - . - . X O , . . . . . O . X . O O , . . . -
$$ - . - . . X X . X . . . . O X X . X X O O . -
$$ - . - . X . O . O . . . . . . X . X O . . . -
$$ - . - . O O O . . O O . . O O . O X . . . . -
$$ - . - O . . X . . . . O X O . . . X X X X X -
$$ - . - . . . X . . . O X X O . X X X X X O O -
$$ - . - X O O , . X . O X O O X X O O O O O . -
$$ - . - X . . O X . . O X O . X O O O . X X X -
$$ - . - X . . O X . . O X O . X O O X X X O O -
$$ - . - X X . . X . . O X O . X O O O X X X O -
$$ - . - . O O X O X . O X O . X X O O O X O O -
$$ - . - . . X . . X . O X O X . O X X X O O O -
$$ - . - O X X , X . . O X O O O O X . X O O . -
$$ - . - . . . . O X . O X X X X X X O X X O 7 -
$$ - . - O . X . . . X O O O O O O X 8 X . O 9 -
$$ - . - . X . . . . . . . . . . O X X X X O O -
$$ +-------------------------------------------+[/go]

Black and White continue in the corner.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c W 210 (Var B 199) = = W 68 (Var B 57)
$$ +-------------------------------------------+
$$ - v - . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . -
$$ - a - . . . . . . . X O O . X O . . . . O . -
$$ - r - . . . . . X . O . . . X . . . . O . . -
$$ - . - . X O , . . . . . O . X . O O , . . . -
$$ - . - . . X X . X . . . . O X X . X X O O . -
$$ - . - . X . O . O . . . . . . X . X O . . . -
$$ - . - . O O O . . O O . W O O . O X . . . . -
$$ - . - O . . X . . . . O X O . . . X X X X X -
$$ - . - . . . X . . . O X X O . X X X X X O O -
$$ - . - X O O , . X . O X O O X X O O O O O . -
$$ - . - X . . O X . . O X O . X O O O . X X X -
$$ - . - X . . O X . . O X O . X O O X X X O O -
$$ - . - X X . . X . . O X O . X O O O X X X O -
$$ - . - . O O X O X . O X O . X X O O O X O O -
$$ - . - . . X . . X . O X O X . O X X X O O O -
$$ - . - O X X , X . . O X O O O O X . X O O . -
$$ - . - . . . . O X . O X X X X X X O X X O X -
$$ - . - O . X . . . X O O O O O O X O X . O X -
$$ - . - . X . . . . . . . . . . O X X X X O O -
$$ +-------------------------------------------+[/go]

Finally, White chooses the move at K13 (aka M13) that she should have played much earlier, instead of capturing with 6.
After her mistake in the corner, White is unable to capture Black's tail group now.

White's move is the "only" move in the candidate moves' list, but has a win rate of about 33 % only.
Please remember that Black's large group in the upper right is unable to get two eyes.

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The really most difficult Go problem ever: http://igohatsuyoron120.de/index.htm
Igo Hatsuyoron #120 (still unresolved by professionals, maybe solved by three amateurs)


Last edited by Cassandra on Sun Sep 15, 2019 12:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: AI & Igo Hatsuyoron 120
Post #11 Posted: Sun Sep 15, 2019 12:23 pm 
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LeelaZero: "Need support! Don't know what to do!"

White 202 = W 60 is the first move where LeelaZero examines a wild bunch of candidate moves that are located in a small win rate corridor.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc W 202 = W 60: candidate moves
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X O O . X O d . . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . X . O . . . X c . . . O . . |
$$ | . X O , . . r q m O g X . O O , . . . |
$$ | . . X X . X h o . j O X X . X X O O . |
$$ | . X . O s O p . . O f . X . X O n . . |
$$ | . O O O . k O O X X O O . O X . . . . |
$$ | O . . X . l b ? O X O . . . X X X X X |
$$ | . . . X . . . O X X O . X X X X . O O |
$$ | X O O , . X . O X O O X X O O O O a . |
$$ | X . . O X . . O X O . X O O O . X X X |
$$ | X . . O X . . O X O . X O O X X X O O |
$$ | X X i . X . . O X O . X O e O . X X O |
$$ | . O O X O X . O X O . X X O O O X O O |
$$ | . . X . . X . O X O X . O X X X O O O |
$$ | O X X , X . . O X O O O O X O X O O X |
$$ | . . . . O X . O X X X X X . O X X O X |
$$ | O . X . . . X O O O O O O X O X . O X |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . O X X X . O . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


Each of the candidate moves from a to s has a win rate in the range 43.5 % - 43.0 %.
These candidate moves may differ from analysis to analysis, but the priciple effect remains stable.

KataGo does not have a similar problem here. It prefers the correct move W H12.

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The really most difficult Go problem ever: http://igohatsuyoron120.de/index.htm
Igo Hatsuyoron #120 (still unresolved by professionals, maybe solved by three amateurs)


Last edited by Cassandra on Mon Sep 16, 2019 12:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: AI & Igo Hatsuyoron 120
Post #12 Posted: Mon Sep 16, 2019 12:29 pm 
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Confusion in the analysis.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c B 207 = B 65
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X O O . X O . . . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . X . O . . . X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . X O , . . . . . O . X . O O ? . . . |
$$ | . . X X . X . O O . O X X . X X O O . |
$$ | . X . O . O # X X O . . X . X O . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . O O X X O O . O X . . . . |
$$ | O . . X . . . O O X O . . . X X X X X |
$$ | . . . X . . . O X X O . X X X X . O O |
$$ | X O O , . X . O X O O X X O O O O . . |
$$ | X . . O X . . O X O . X O O O . X X X |
$$ | X . . O X . . O X O . X O O X X X O O |
$$ | X X . . X . . O X O . X O . O . X X O |
$$ | . O O X O X . O X O . X X O O O X O O |
$$ | . . X . . X . O X O X . O X X X O O O |
$$ | O X X , X . . O X O O O O X O X O O X |
$$ | . . . . O X . O X X X X X . O X X O X |
$$ | O . X . . . X O O O O O O X O X . O X |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . O X X X . O . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

With move 65 of the solution sequence, both programs prefer to follow the classical solution by initiating the Crosscut Sequence with G14. Let's call this decision "semi-correct".

Win rates:
55 % LeelaZero
30 % KataGo

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c B 213 = B 71
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . B . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X O O . X O B W . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . X . O . . . X W . . W O . . |
$$ | . X O , . . . . . O . X . O O B . . . |
$$ | . . X X . X . O O . O X X . X X O O . |
$$ | . X . O . O c X X O . . X . X O Z . . |
$$ | . O O O . . O O X X O O . O X . . ? . |
$$ | O . . X . . . O O X O . . . X X X X X |
$$ | . . . X . . . O X X O . X X X X . O O |
$$ | X O O , . X . O X O O X X O O O O . . |
$$ | X . . O X . . O X O . X O O O . X X X |
$$ | X . . O X . . O X O . X O O X X X O O |
$$ | X X . . X . . O X O . X O . O . X X O |
$$ | . O O X O X . O X O . X X O O O X O O |
$$ | . . X . . X . O X O X . O X X X O O O |
$$ | O X X , X . . O X O O O O X O X O O X |
$$ | . . . . O X . O X X X X X . O X X O X |
$$ | O . X . . . X O O O O O O X O X . O X |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . O X X X . O . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

However, after the six moves of the forcing sequence in the top right corner have been inserted (Black Q16 to White P18), both programs switch to the suicidal Black move at R14, instead of playing my guzumi at S13 or at least following the classical solution with a mvoe at c again. Black will lose decisive liberties by creating an eye for his large group in the top right.

Win rates:
75 % LeelaZero
35 % KataGo

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The really most difficult Go problem ever: http://igohatsuyoron120.de/index.htm
Igo Hatsuyoron #120 (still unresolved by professionals, maybe solved by three amateurs)


Last edited by Cassandra on Tue Sep 17, 2019 1:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #13 Posted: Tue Sep 17, 2019 1:19 am 
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LeelaZero: "Need support! Don't know what to do!"

White 214 = W 72 (i. e. after Black's guzumi) is another move where LeelaZero examines a wild bunch of candidate moves that are located in a small win rate corridor.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c W 214 = W 72: candidate moves
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . g . O X n |
$$ | m . . . . . j X O O . X O X O . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . X . O . . . X O . o O O . . |
$$ | . X O , . . h . . O . X . O O X v . . |
$$ | . . X X b X d O O x O X X . X X O O . |
$$ | . X . O . O . X X O q . X . X O . ? . |
$$ | . O O O s . O O X X O O . O X . p X . |
$$ | O i w X . y . O O X O . . . X X X X X |
$$ | c f u X . . . O X X O . X X X X . O O |
$$ | X O O , . X z O X O O X X O O O O a . |
$$ | X l . O X . . O X O . X O O O . X X X |
$$ | X . . O X . . O X O . X O O X X X O O |
$$ | X X . . X . . O X O . X O e O . X X O |
$$ | . O O X O X . O X O . X X O O O X O O |
$$ | . . X . . X . O X O X r O X X X O O O |
$$ | O X X , X . t O X O O O O X O X O O X |
$$ | . . . . O X . O X X X X X . O X X O X |
$$ | O . X . . . X O O O O O O X O X . O X |
$$ | k X . . . . . . . . . . O X X X . O . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

The win rate of these candidate moves is 35.5 % - 35.0 %.

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

KatoGo is much more willing to make decisions, but nevertheless fatally mistaken.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c W 214 = W 72
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X O O . X O X O . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . X . O . . . X O . . O O . . |
$$ | . X O , . . . . . O . X . O O X . . . |
$$ | . . X X . X . O O . O X X . X X O O . |
$$ | . X . O . O . X X O . . X . X O . ? . |
$$ | . O O O . . O O X X O O . O X . . X . |
$$ | O . . X . . . O O X O . . . X X X X X |
$$ | . . . X . . . O X X O . X X X X . O O |
$$ | X O O , . X . O X O O X X O O O O P . |
$$ | X . . O X . . O X O . X O O O . X X X |
$$ | X . . O X . . O X O . X O O X X X O O |
$$ | X X . . X . . O X O . X O . O . X X O |
$$ | . O O X O X . O X O . X X O O O X O O |
$$ | . . X . . X . O X O X . O X X X O O O |
$$ | O X X , X . . O X O O O O X O X O O X |
$$ | . . . . O X . O X X X X X . O X X O X |
$$ | O . X . . . X O O O O O O X O X . O X |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . O X X X . O . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Another fatal inclination to a point in the hanezeki.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc W 214 - W 216 (Var W 214) = W 72 - W 74 (Var W 72)
$$ +-------------------------------------------+
$$ - v - . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . O X . -
$$ - a - . . . . . . . X O O . X O X O . . O . -
$$ - r - . . . . . X . O . . . X O . . O O . . -
$$ - . - . X O , . . . . . O . X . O O X . . . -
$$ - . - . . X X . X . O O . O X X . X X O O . -
$$ - . - . X . O . O P X X O . . X . X O . ? . -
$$ - . - . O O O . . O O X X O O . O X . . X . -
$$ - . - O . . X . . . O O X O . . . X X X X X -
$$ - . - . . . X . . . O X X O . X X X X . O O -
$$ - . - X O O , . X . O X O O X X O O O O 1 . -
$$ - . - X . . O X . . O X O . X O O O . X X X -
$$ - . - X . . O X . . O X O . X O O X X X O O -
$$ - . - X X . . X . . O X O . X O . O . X X O -
$$ - . - . O O X O X . O X O . X X O O O X O O -
$$ - . - . . X . . X . O X O X . O X X X O O O -
$$ - . - O X X , X . . O X O O O O X O X O O X -
$$ - . - . . . . O X . O X X X X X . O X X O X -
$$ - . - O . X . . . X O O O O O O X O X . O X -
$$ - . - . X . . . . . . . . . . O X X X 2 O . -
$$ +-----------------–--------------------------+[/go]

KataGo's preferred move might be meant as a forcing move, as Black answers in the lower right corner, following his own inclination.

Finally, White blocks the tail with a move at G14, but preventing two Black eyes at the right with a move at U14 (aka S14) would have been correct.

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The really most difficult Go problem ever: http://igohatsuyoron120.de/index.htm
Igo Hatsuyoron #120 (still unresolved by professionals, maybe solved by three amateurs)


Last edited by Cassandra on Wed Sep 25, 2019 2:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: AI & Igo Hatsuyoron 120
Post #14 Posted: Tue Sep 17, 2019 9:29 am 
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Just a quick first question: does your analysis mean that AI is too weak to play well in H120?

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Post #15 Posted: Tue Sep 17, 2019 11:36 am 
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RobertJasiek wrote:
Just a quick first question: does your analysis mean that AI is too weak to play well in H120?

I would like to say it with Bill ...
Bill Spight wrote:
... the main virtue of today's top bots lies in evaluation, not the calculation of variations.

Bill Spight wrote:
... today's bots were not built to handle such positions. ;)

As far as I know, AI can become superhuman ONLY in the very small field of tasks it has been trained for.

The Go AI has been trained to PLAY GAMES of Go, so it's a pity, but not very surprising that the Go AI does not perform very well when the task is to continue and win an ARTIFICIAL board position.

I am very sure that the AIs never encountered e.g. a hanezeki, a nine-point nakade, one large semeai across the board, or any of the other (sub-problem) shapes masterfully created by Inoue Dosetsu Inseki during their training processes. The programs' inclinations to (locally) gote moves in the hanezeki are evidence of that.

I think that this is comparable with the (also) whole board shape that Lee Sedol managed to create, therewith successfully beating AlphaGo. In these cases, it seems to me that the programs cannot resort to their superhuman knowledge, and fail (and in doing so seemingly playing at amateur level).

Especially with Igo Hatsuyoron 120, the reading depth of the programs may be too low to "understand" the implications of this whole board position.

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

tl;dr

The AI has still a long way to go ...

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The really most difficult Go problem ever: http://igohatsuyoron120.de/index.htm
Igo Hatsuyoron #120 (still unresolved by professionals, maybe solved by three amateurs)

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Post #16 Posted: Tue Sep 17, 2019 3:10 pm 
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One thing to understand, is that the programs don't know the difference between a problem and a game. And that has consequences in how you approach the position

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 Post subject: Re: AI & Igo Hatsuyoron 120
Post #17 Posted: Tue Sep 17, 2019 11:39 pm 
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Tryss wrote:
One thing to understand, is that the programs don't know the difference between a problem and a game. And that has consequences in how you approach the position

If this were true, I would assume the programs to perform better.

Let me give an example, showing the two types of White replies during the growth of the hanezeki's tail:

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

Intro: What both programs already know

During the sequences following mistaken White moves during the growth of the hanezeki's tail, both programs are very well aware that ...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ +-------------------------------------------+
$$ - v - . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . -
$$ - a - . . . . . . . X O O . X O . . . . O . -
$$ - r - . . . . . X . O . . . X . . . . O . . -
$$ - . - . X O , . . . . . O . X . O O , . . . -
$$ - . - . . X X . X . . . . O X X . X X O O . -
$$ - . - . X . O . O . . . . . . X . X O . . . -
$$ - . - . O O O . . O O . . O O . O X . . . . -
$$ - . - O . . X . . . . . . . . . . X X X X X -
$$ - . - . . . X . . . O . . O . X X X X . O O -
$$ - . - X O O , . X . . . O . X X O O O O . . -
$$ - . - X . . O X . . . . O . X O O O . X X X -
$$ - . - X . . O X . . . X O . X O O X X X O O -
$$ - . - X X . . X . . O . O . X O . O . X X O -
$$ - . - . O O X O X . . . O . X X O O O X O O -
$$ - . - . . X . . X . . . . X . O X X X O O O -
$$ - . - O X X , X . . O . , O O O X O X O O X -
$$ - . - . . . . O X . . . . . . . B O X X O X -
$$ - . - O . X . . . . . O . . . O X O X . O X -
$$ - . - . X . . . . . . . . . . O X X X . O . -
$$ +-------------------------------------------+[/go]

... capturing White's three stones in the lower right is Black's privilege, and ...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ +-------------------------------------------+
$$ - v - . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . -
$$ - a - . . . . . . . X O O . X O . . . . O . -
$$ - r - . . . . . X . O . . . X . . . . O . . -
$$ - . - . X O , . . . . . O . X . O O , . . . -
$$ - . - . . X X . X . . . . O X X . X X O O . -
$$ - . - . X . O . O . . . . . . X . X O . . . -
$$ - . - . O O O . . O O . . O O . O X . . . . -
$$ - . - O . . X . . . . . . . . . . X X X X X -
$$ - . - . . . X . . . O . . O . X X X X . O O -
$$ - . - X O O , . X . . . O . X X O O O O . . -
$$ - . - X . . O X . . . . O . X O O O . X X X -
$$ - . - X . . O X . . . X O . X O O X X X O O -
$$ - . - X X . . X . . O . O . X O . O . X X O -
$$ - . - . O O X O X . . . O . X X O O O X O O -
$$ - . - . . X . . X . . . . X . O X X X O O O -
$$ - . - O X X , X . . O . , O O O X . X O O X -
$$ - . - . . . . O X . . . . . . . X W X X O X -
$$ - . - O . X . . . . . O . . . O X . X . O X -
$$ - . - . X . . . . . . . . . . O X X X . O . -
$$ +-------------------------------------------+[/go]

...that this forces White to prevent Black from immediately getting two eyes.

To ease the following presentation, we can savely assume that these two moves are played first.

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

TYPE 1: Life for or escape of the tail (NOT CHOOSEN !!!)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Two eyes
$$ +-------------------------------------------+
$$ - v - . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . -
$$ - a - . . . . . . . X O O . X O . . . . O . -
$$ - r - . . . . . X . O . . . X . . . . O . . -
$$ - . - . X O , . . . . . O . X . O O , . . . -
$$ - . - . . X X . X . . . . O X X . X X O O . -
$$ - . - . X . O . O . . . . . . X . X O . . . -
$$ - . - . O O O . . O O . . O O . O X . . . . -
$$ - . - O . . X . . . . . . . . . . X X X X X -
$$ - . - . . . X . . . O . . O . X X X X . O O -
$$ - . - X O O , . X . . . O . X X O O O O . . -
$$ - . - X . . O X . . . . O . X O O O . X X X -
$$ - . - X . . O X . . . X O . X O O X X X O O -
$$ - . - X X . . X . . O . O . X O . O . X X O -
$$ - . - . O O X O X . . . O . X X O O O X O O -
$$ - . - . . X . . X . . . . X . O X X X O O O -
$$ - . - O X X , X . . O . , O O O X . X O O X -
$$ - . - . . . . O X . . . . . P X X O X X O X -
$$ - . - O . X . . . . . O . . 1 O X . X . O X -
$$ - . - . X . . . . . . . . . . O X X X . O . -
$$ +-------------------------------------------+[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Two eyes
$$ +-------------------------------------------+
$$ - v - . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . -
$$ - a - . . . . . . . X O O . X O . . . . O . -
$$ - r - . . . . . X . O . . . X . . . . O . . -
$$ - . - . X O , . . . . . O . X . O O , . . . -
$$ - . - . . X X . X . . . . O X X . X X O O . -
$$ - . - . X . O . O . . . . . . X . X O . . . -
$$ - . - . O O O . . O O . . O O . O X . . . . -
$$ - . - O . . X . . . . . . . . . . X X X X X -
$$ - . - . . . X . . . O . . O . X X X X . O O -
$$ - . - X O O , . X . . . O . X X O O O O . . -
$$ - . - X . . O X . . . . O . X O O O . X X X -
$$ - . - X . . O X . . . X O . X O O X X X O O -
$$ - . - X X . . X . . O . O . X O . O . X X O -
$$ - . - . O O X O X . . . O . X X O O O X O O -
$$ - . - . . X . . X . . . . X . O X X X O O O -
$$ - . - O X X , X . . O . , O O O X . X O O X -
$$ - . - . . . . O X . . . . P X X X O X X O X -
$$ - . - O . X . . . . . O . 1 O O X . X . O X -
$$ - . - . X . . . . . . . . . . O X X X . O . -
$$ +-------------------------------------------+[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Capturing four White stones
$$ +-------------------------------------------+
$$ - v - . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . -
$$ - a - . . . . . . . X O O . X O . . . . O . -
$$ - r - . . . . . X . O . . . X . . . . O . . -
$$ - . - . X O , . . . . . O . X . O O , . . . -
$$ - . - . . X X . X . . . . O X X . X X O O . -
$$ - . - . X . O . O . . . . . . X . X O . . . -
$$ - . - . O O O . . O O . . O O . O X . . . . -
$$ - . - O . . X . . . . . . . . . . X X X X X -
$$ - . - . . . X . . . O . . O . X X X X . O O -
$$ - . - X O O , . X . . . O . X X O O O O . . -
$$ - . - X . . O X . . . . O . X O O O . X X X -
$$ - . - X . . O X . . . X O . X O O X X X O O -
$$ - . - X X . . X . . O . O . X O . O . X X O -
$$ - . - . O O X O X . . . O . X X O O O X O O -
$$ - . - . . X . . X . . . . X . O X X X O O O -
$$ - . - O X X , X . . O . 1 O O O X . X O O X -
$$ - . - . . . . O X . . . P X X X X O X X O X -
$$ - . - O . X . . . . . O . O O O X . X . O X -
$$ - . - . X . . . . . . . . . . O X X X . O . -
$$ +-------------------------------------------+[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Capturing four White stones
$$ +-------------------------------------------+
$$ - v - . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . -
$$ - a - . . . . . . . X O O . X O . . . . O . -
$$ - r - . . . . . X . O . . . X . . . . O . . -
$$ - . - . X O , . . . . . O . X . O O , . . . -
$$ - . - . . X X . X . . . . O X X . X X O O . -
$$ - . - . X . O . O . . . . . . X . X O . . . -
$$ - . - . O O O . . O O . . O O . O X . . . . -
$$ - . - O . . X . . . . . . . . . . X X X X X -
$$ - . - . . . X . . . O . . O . X X X X . O O -
$$ - . - X O O , . X . . . O . X X O O O O . . -
$$ - . - X . . O X . . . . O . X O O O . X X X -
$$ - . - X . . O X . . . X O . X O O X X X O O -
$$ - . - X X . . X . . O . O . X O . O . X X O -
$$ - . - . O O X O X . . . O . X X O O O X O O -
$$ - . - . . X . . X . . . . X . O X X X O O O -
$$ - . - O X X , X . . O . 1 O O O X . X O O X -
$$ - . - . . . . O X . . P X X X X X O X X O X -
$$ - . - O . X . . . . . O O O O O X . X . O X -
$$ - . - . X . . . . . . . . . . O X X X . O . -
$$ +-------------------------------------------+[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Connecting to the left
$$ +-------------------------------------------+
$$ - v - . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . -
$$ - a - . . . . . . . X O O . X O . . . . O . -
$$ - r - . . . . . X . O . . . X . . . . O . . -
$$ - . - . X O , . . . . . O . X . O O , . . . -
$$ - . - . . X X . X . . . . O X X . X X O O . -
$$ - . - . X . O . O . . . . . . X . X O . . . -
$$ - . - . O O O . . O O . . O O . O X . . . . -
$$ - . - O . . X . . . . . . . . . . X X X X X -
$$ - . - . . . X . . . O . . O . X X X X . O O -
$$ - . - X O O , . X . . . O . X X O O O O . . -
$$ - . - X . . O X . . . . O . X O O O . X X X -
$$ - . - X . . O X . . . X O . X O O X X X O O -
$$ - . - X X . . X . . O . O . X O . O . X X O -
$$ - . - . O O X O X . . . O . X X O O O X O O -
$$ - . - . . X . . X . . . . X . O X X X O O O -
$$ - . - O X X , X . . O P O O O O X . X O O X -
$$ - . - . . . . O X 3 1 X X X X X X O X X O X -
$$ - . - O . X . . . . 2 O O O O O X . X . O X -
$$ - . - . X . . . . . . . . . . O X X X . O . -
$$ +-------------------------------------------+[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Capturing five White stones
$$ +-------------------------------------------+
$$ - v - . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . -
$$ - a - . . . . . . . X O O . X O . . . . O . -
$$ - r - . . . . . X . O . . . X . . . . O . . -
$$ - . - . X O , . . . . . O . X . O O , . . . -
$$ - . - . . X X . X . . . . O X X . X X O O . -
$$ - . - . X . O . O . . . . . . X . X O . . . -
$$ - . - . O O O . . O O . . O O . O X . . . . -
$$ - . - O . . X . . . . . . . . . . X X X X X -
$$ - . - . . . X . . . O . . O . X X X X . O O -
$$ - . - X O O , . X . . . O . X X O O O O . . -
$$ - . - X . . O X . . . . O . X O O O . X X X -
$$ - . - X . . O X . . . X O . X O O X X X O O -
$$ - . - X X . . X . . O . O . X O . O . X X O -
$$ - . - . O O X O X . . . O . X X O O O X O O -
$$ - . - . . X . . X . . P 1 X . O X X X O O O -
$$ - . - O X X , X . . O X O O O O X . X O O X -
$$ - . - . . . . O X . O X X X X X X O X X O X -
$$ - . - O . X . . . X O O O O O O X . X . O X -
$$ - . - . X . . . . . . . . . . O X X X . O . -
$$ +-------------------------------------------+[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Connecting to the left
$$ +-------------------------------------------+
$$ - v - . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . -
$$ - a - . . . . . . . X O O . X O . . . . O . -
$$ - r - . . . . . X . O . . . X . . . . O . . -
$$ - . - . X O , . . . . . O . X . O O , . . . -
$$ - . - . . X X . X . . . . O X X . X X O O . -
$$ - . - . X . O . O . . . . . . X . X O . . . -
$$ - . - . O O O . . O O . . O O . O X . . . . -
$$ - . - O . . X . . . . . . . . . . X X X X X -
$$ - . - . . . X . . . O . . O . X X X X . O O -
$$ - . - X O O , . X . . . O . X X O O O O . . -
$$ - . - X . . O X . . . . O . X O O O . X X X -
$$ - . - X . . O X . . . X O . X O O X X X O O -
$$ - . - X X . . X . . O . O . X O . O . X X O -
$$ - . - . O O X O X 3 5 P O . X X O O O X O O -
$$ - . - . . X . . X 2 1 X O X . O X X X O O O -
$$ - . - O X X , X . 4 O X O O O O X . X O O X -
$$ - . - . . . . O X . O X X X X X X O X X O X -
$$ - . - O . X . . . X O O O O O O X . X . O X -
$$ - . - . X . . . . . . . . . . O X X X . O . -
$$ +-------------------------------------------+[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Connecting to the left
$$ +-------------------------------------------+
$$ - v - . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . -
$$ - a - . . . . . . . X O O . X O . . . . O . -
$$ - r - . . . . . X . O . . . X . . . . O . . -
$$ - . - . X O , . . . . . O . X . O O , . . . -
$$ - . - . . X X . X . . . . O X X . X X O O . -
$$ - . - . X . O . O . . . . . . X . X O . . . -
$$ - . - . O O O . . O O . . O O . O X . . . . -
$$ - . - O . . X . . . . . . . . . . X X X X X -
$$ - . - . . . X . . . O . . O . X X X X . O O -
$$ - . - X O O , . X . . . O . X X O O O O . . -
$$ - . - X . . O X . 3 4 P O . X O O O . X X X -
$$ - . - X . . O X . 2 1 X O . X O O X X X O O -
$$ - . - X X . . X . 5 O X O . X O . O . X X O -
$$ - . - . O O X O X . O X O . X X O O O X O O -
$$ - . - . . X . . X . O X O X . O X X X O O O -
$$ - . - O X X , X . . O X O O O O X . X O O X -
$$ - . - . . . . O X . O X X X X X X O X X O X -
$$ - . - O . X . . . X O O O O O O X . X . O X -
$$ - . - . X . . . . . . . . . . O X X X . O . -
$$ +-------------------------------------------+[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Connecting to the left
$$ +-------------------------------------------+
$$ - v - . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . -
$$ - a - . . . . . . . X O O . X O . . . . O . -
$$ - r - . . . . . X . O . . . X . . . . O . . -
$$ - . - . X O , . . . . . O . X . O O , . . . -
$$ - . - . . X X . X . . . . O X X . X X O O . -
$$ - . - . X . O . O . . . . . . X . X O . . . -
$$ - . - . O O O . . O O . . O O . O X . . . . -
$$ - . - O . . X . . . . . . . . . . X X X X X -
$$ - . - . . . X . . . O . . O . X X X X . O O -
$$ - . - X O O , . X 3 4 P O . X X O O O O . . -
$$ - . - X . . O X . 2 1 X O . X O O O . X X X -
$$ - . - X . . O X . 5 O X O . X O O X X X O O -
$$ - . - X X . . X . . O X O . X O . O . X X O -
$$ - . - . O O X O X . O X O . X X O O O X O O -
$$ - . - . . X . . X . O X O X . O X X X O O O -
$$ - . - O X X , X . . O X O O O O X . X O O X -
$$ - . - . . . . O X . O X X X X X X O X X O X -
$$ - . - O . X . . . X O O O O O O X . X . O X -
$$ - . - . X . . . . . . . . . . O X X X . O . -
$$ +-------------------------------------------+[/go]

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

TYPE 2: Confinement of the tail (MISTAKENLY CHOOSEN !!!)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Sealing the tail in
$$ +-------------------------------------------+
$$ - v - . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . -
$$ - a - . . . . . . . X O O . X O . . . . O . -
$$ - r - . . . . . X . O . . . X . . . . O . . -
$$ - . - . X O , . . . . . O . X . O O , . . . -
$$ - . - . . X X . X . . . . O X X . X X O O . -
$$ - . - . X . O . O . . . . . . X . X O . . . -
$$ - . - . O O O . . O O . . O O . O X . . . . -
$$ - . - O . . X . . . . . . . . . . X X X X X -
$$ - . - . . . X . . . O . . O . X X X X . O O -
$$ - . - X O O , . X . . . O . X X O O O O . . -
$$ - . - X . . O X . . . . O . X O O O . X X X -
$$ - . - X . . O X . . . X O . X O O X X X O O -
$$ - . - X X . . X . 4 O P O . X O . O . X X O -
$$ - . - . O O X O X 2 1 X O . X X O O O X O O -
$$ - . - . . X . . X 3 O X O X . O X X X O O O -
$$ - . - O X X , X . . O X O O O O X . X O O X -
$$ - . - . . . . O X . O X X X X X X O X X O X -
$$ - . - O . X . . . X O O O O O O X . X . O X -
$$ - . - . X . . . . . . . . . . O X X X . O . -
$$ +-------------------------------------------+[/go]

Now, there is a semeai between White's stones on the lower edge, and Black's tail group.

White should only play this way if she knew that she can win this semeai. What the programs usually do NOT during their analysis.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Sealing the tail in
$$ +-------------------------------------------+
$$ - v - . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . -
$$ - a - . . . . . . . X O O . X O . . . . O . -
$$ - r - . . . . . X . O . . . X . . . . O . . -
$$ - . - . X O , . . . . . O . X . O O , . . . -
$$ - . - . . X X . X . . . . O X X . X X O O . -
$$ - . - . X . O . O . . . . . . X . X O . . . -
$$ - . - . O O O . . O O . . O O . O X . . . . -
$$ - . - O . . X . . . . . . . . . . X X X X X -
$$ - . - . . . X . . 4 O P . O . X X X X . O O -
$$ - . - X O O , . X 2 1 X O . X X O O O O . . -
$$ - . - X . . O X . 3 O X O . X O O O . X X X -
$$ - . - X . . O X . . O X O . X O O X X X O O -
$$ - . - X X . . X . . O X O . X O . O . X X O -
$$ - . - . O O X O X . O X O . X X O O O X O O -
$$ - . - . . X . . X . O X O X . O X X X O O O -
$$ - . - O X X , X . . O X O O O O X . X O O X -
$$ - . - . . . . O X . O X X X X X X O X X O X -
$$ - . - O . X . . . X O O O O O O X . X . O X -
$$ - . - . X . . . . . . . . . . O X X X . O . -
$$ +-------------------------------------------+[/go]

Now, there is a semeai between White's stones on the lower edge, and Black's tail group.

White should only play this way if she "knew" that she can win this semeai. What the programs usually do NOT during their analysis (neither do the programs "know" that capturing the tail is losing the game for White).

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

I would like to reason that AI does understand (short) future sequences that capture some opponent's stones (and so either make two eyes or connect to the outside), but are unable to handle a (longer) semeai correct.

_________________
The really most difficult Go problem ever: http://igohatsuyoron120.de/index.htm
Igo Hatsuyoron #120 (still unresolved by professionals, maybe solved by three amateurs)


Last edited by Cassandra on Wed Sep 18, 2019 4:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: AI & Igo Hatsuyoron 120
Post #18 Posted: Wed Sep 18, 2019 3:24 am 
Honinbo

Posts: 9052
Liked others: 2761
Was liked: 3079
Cassandra wrote:
Tryss wrote:
One thing to understand, is that the programs don't know the difference between a problem and a game. And that has consequences in how you approach the position

If this were true, I would assume the programs to perform better.


A couple of things. Many classical problems were, in fact, whole board problems, considering that a fight over the life or death of a corner could spill out into the rest of the board. However, if the purpose of the problem was to win the game, it might well be best to play somewhere else and possibly lose the fight in the corner. But this is not one of those problems, for two reasons. 1) The fight for life and death is huge, dwarfing anything else, at least at first. 2) Regular yose are part of the problem, not just life and death. So the purpose of the problem is to win the game.

Given that the purpose is to win the game, komi matters. In fact, to the best of human analysis, if Black gives 7½ pts. komi, she cannot win the game. So far in this discussion, the bots are assumping a 7½ pt. komi. In this note, Cassandra has shown a number of AI mistakes by White that allow Black to win the game, even giving komi. To wit:

Cassandra wrote:
Let me give an example, showing the two types of White replies during the growth of the hanezeki's tail:

{snip}

White should only play this way if she knew that she can win this semeai. What the programs usually do NOT during their analysis.

{snip}

White should only play this way if she "knew" that she can win this semeai. What the programs usually do NOT during their analysis (neither do the programs "know" that capturing the tail is losing the game for White).

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

I would like to reason that AI does understand (short) future sequences that capture some opponent's stones (and so either make two eyes or connect to the outside), but are unable to handle a (longer) semeai correct.


This is a well known defect of today's top bots. Humans do better at large semeai. In fact, not too long ago I posted a mistaken review by Elf where the semeai was not that big, but there was a tesuji at the end. Elf failed to see the human win until late in the actual play. (Or maybe the human loser resigned first, I don't recall exactly.)

My working hypothesis for why this happens is twofold. First, there is a horizon effect. You have to calculate the tree deeply enough to find the correct play. Humans excel at depth first search, at least consciously. Second, searching the whole board is inefficient for finding locally deep plays. Usually searching the whole board is better than local depth first search, which is one reason that today's bots play at super human levels. Another is that they are better at whole board evaluation than humans, but that is something that humans can learn from them. :)

Anyway, most go problems are designed for human solution, that is, for depth first local search, even if the search takes the whole board. If bots were trained on such problems, they could very likely do better than humans at them. But such training would take many thousands, maybe millions of such problems, and they do not exist, nor do we know how to have computers construct them.

I think that in the future, go playing programs will, like humans, utilize local search as well as whole board search. We know mathematically that it is more efficient to search independent regions of the board locally and combine the results of those searches into a whole board search. That is how humans do well at the endgame. :) An unsolved problem is how to get computers to recognize independent regions of the board. Right now, programs are continuing to improve rapidly by improving their whole board evaluation. But eventually diminishig returns will set in, and my guess is that new programs will start to incorporate local searches in order to improve. Not using local search is a known weakness, after all.

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This post by Bill Spight was liked by: Cassandra
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 Post subject: Re: AI & Igo Hatsuyoron 120
Post #19 Posted: Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:42 am 
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The handling of the hanezeki's tail might be difficult to "understand".

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Var B 221 = B 81: Connecting the tail
$$ +-------------------------------------------+
$$ - v - . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . O X . -
$$ - a - . . . . . . . X O O . X O X O . . O . -
$$ - r - . . . . . X . O . . . X O . . O O . . -
$$ - . - . X O , . . . . . O . X . O O X . . . -
$$ - . - . . X X . X O O O . O X X . X X O O . -
$$ - . - . X . O . O X X X O . . X . X O . O . -
$$ - . - . O O O . . O O X X O O . O X . . X . -
$$ - . - O . . X . . . O O X O . . . X X X X X -
$$ - . - . . . X . . . O X X O . X X X X O O O -
$$ - . - X O O , . X . O X O O X X O O O O X . -
$$ - . - X . . O X . . O X O . X O O O . X X X -
$$ - . - X . . O X . . O X O . X O O X X X O O -
$$ - . - X X . . X . . O X O . X O O O X X X O -
$$ - . - . O O X O X . O X O . X X O O O X O O -
$$ - . - . . X . . X . O X O X . O X X X O O O -
$$ - . - O X X , X . . O X O O O O X O X O O X -
$$ - . - . . . . O X . O X X X X X 1 O X X O X -
$$ - . - O . X . . . X O O O O O O X O X . O X -
$$ - . - . X . . . . . . . . . . O X X X . O . -
$$ +-------------------------------------------+[/go]

Connecting the tail while capturing three White stones is a fatal mistake, but ...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ +-------------------------------------------+
$$ - v - . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . O X . -
$$ - a - . . . . . . . X O O . X O X O . . O . -
$$ - r - . . . . . X . O . . . X O . . O O . . -
$$ - . - . X O , . . . . . O . X . O O X . . . -
$$ - . - . . X X . X O O O . O X X . X X O O . -
$$ - . - . X . O . O X X X O . . X . X O . O . -
$$ - . - . O O O . . O O X X O O . O X . . X . -
$$ - . - O . . X . . . O O X O . . . X X X X X -
$$ - . - . . . X . . . O X X O . X X X X O O O -
$$ - 3 - X O O , . X . O X O O X X O O O O X . -
$$ - 5 - X . . O X . . O X O . X O O O . X X X -
$$ - 7 - X . . O X . . O X O . X O O X X X O O -
$$ - . - X X . . X . . O X O . X O O O X X X O -
$$ - . - . O O X O X . O X O . X X O O O X O O -
$$ - . - . . X . . X . O X O X . O X X X O O O -
$$ - . - O X X , X . . O X O O O O X . X O O X -
$$ - . - . . . . O X . O X X X X X X 2 X X O X -
$$ - . - O . X . . . X O O O O O O X 4 X 6 O X -
$$ - . - . X . . . . . . . . . . O X X X . O 8 -
$$ +-------------------------------------------+[/go]

... if White ever has to capture Black's tail group, ...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ +-------------------------------------------+
$$ - v - . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . O X . -
$$ - a - . . . . . . . X O O . X O X O . . O . -
$$ - r - . . . . . X . O . . . X O . . O O . . -
$$ - . - . X O , . . . . . O . X . O O X . . . -
$$ - . - . . X X . X O O O . O X X . X X O O . -
$$ - . - . X . O . O X X X O . . X . X O . O . -
$$ - . - . O O O . . O O X X O O . O X . . X . -
$$ - . - O . . X . . . O O X O . . . X X X X X -
$$ - . - . . . X . . . O X X O . X X X X O O O -
$$ - X - X O O , . X . O X O O X X O O O O X . -
$$ - X - X . . O X . . O X O . X O O O . X X X -
$$ - X - X . . O X . . O X O . X O O X X X O O -
$$ - . - X X . . X . . O X O . X O O O X X X O -
$$ - . - . O O X O X . O X O . X X O O O X O O -
$$ - . - . . X . . X . O X O X . O X X X O O O -
$$ - . - O X X , X . . O X O O O O X . X O O . -
$$ - . - . . . . O X . O X X X X X X O X X O 9 -
$$ - . - O . X . . . X O O O O O O X O X O O . -
$$ - . - . X . . . . . . . . . . O X X X 0 O O -
$$ +-------------------------------------------+[/go]

...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11
$$ +-------------------------------------------+
$$ - v - . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . O X . -
$$ - a - . . . . . . . X O O . X O X O . . O . -
$$ - r - . . . . . X . O . . . X O . . O O . . -
$$ - . - . X O , . . . . . O . X . O O X . . . -
$$ - . - . . X X . X O O O . O X X . X X O O . -
$$ - . - . X . O . O X X X O . . X . X O . O . -
$$ - . - . O O O . . O O X X O O . O X . . X . -
$$ - . - O . . X . . . O O X O . . . X X X X X -
$$ - . - . . . X . . . O X X O . X X X X O O O -
$$ - X - X O O , . X . O X O O X X O O O O X . -
$$ - X - X . . O X . . O X O . X O O O . X X X -
$$ - X - X . . O X . . O X O . X O O X X X O O -
$$ - 1 - X X . . X . . O X O . X O O O X X X O -
$$ - . - . O O X O X . O X O . X X O O O X O O -
$$ - . - . . X . . X . O X O X . O X X X O O O -
$$ - . - O X X , X . . O X O O O O X 2 X O O . -
$$ - . - . . . . O X . O X X X X X X O X X O X -
$$ - . - O . X . . . X O O O O O O X O X O O . -
$$ - . - . X . . . . . . . . . . O X X X O O O -
$$ +-------------------------------------------+[/go]

... Black can play elsewhere four times.

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Var W 222 = W 80: Capturing the tail
$$ +-------------------------------------------+
$$ - v - . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . O X . -
$$ - a - . . . . . . . X O O . X O X O . . O . -
$$ - r - . . . . . X . O . . . X O . . O O . . -
$$ - . - . X O , . . . . . O . X . O O X . . . -
$$ - . - . . X X . X O O O . O X X . X X O O . -
$$ - . - . X . O . O X X X O . . X . X O . O . -
$$ - . - . O O O . X O O X X O O . O X . . X . -
$$ - . - O . . X . . . O O X O . . . X X X X X -
$$ - . - . . . X . . . O X X O . X X X X O O O -
$$ - . - X O O , . X . O X O O X X O O O O X . -
$$ - . - X . . O X . . O X O . X O O O . X X X -
$$ - . - X . . O X . . O X O . X O O X X X O O -
$$ - . - X X . . X . . O X O . X O O O X X X O -
$$ - . - . O O X O X . O X O . X X O O O X O O -
$$ - . - . . X . . X . O X O X . O X X X O O O -
$$ - . - O X X , X . . O X O O O O X O X O O X -
$$ - . - . . . . O X . O X X X X X 1 O X X O X -
$$ - . - O . X . . . X O O O O O O X O X . O X -
$$ - . - . X . . . . . . . . . . O X X X . O . -
$$ +-------------------------------------------+[/go]

On the other hand, if White mistakenly captures the tail, ...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ +-------------------------------------------+
$$ - v - . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . O X . -
$$ - a - . . . . . . . X O O . X O X O . . O . -
$$ - r - . . . . . X . O . . . X O . . O O . . -
$$ - . - . X O , . . . . . O . X . O O X . . . -
$$ - . - . . X X . X O O O . O X X . X X O O . -
$$ - . - . X . O . O . . . O . . X . X O . O . -
$$ - . - . O O O . X O O . . O O . O X . . X . -
$$ - . - O . . X . . . O O . O . . . X X X X X -
$$ - . - . . . X . . . O . . O . X X X X O O O -
$$ - . - X O O , . X . O . O O X X O O O O X . -
$$ - . - X . . O X . . O . O . X O O O . X X X -
$$ - . - X . . O X . . O . O . X O O X X X O O -
$$ - . - X X . . X . . O . O . X O O O X X X O -
$$ - . - . O O X O X . O . O . X X O O O X O O -
$$ - . - . . X . . X . O . O X . O X X X O O O -
$$ - . - O X X , X . . O . O O O O X O X O O X -
$$ - . - . . . . O X . O . . . . 2 O O X X O X -
$$ - . - O . X . . . X O O O O O O X O X . O X -
$$ - . - . X . . . . . . . . . . O X X X . O . -
$$ +-------------------------------------------+[/go]

...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ +-------------------------------------------+
$$ - v - . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . O X . -
$$ - a - . . . . . . . X O O . X O X O . . O . -
$$ - r - . . . . . X . O . . . X O . . O O . . -
$$ - . - . X O , . . . . . O . X . O O X . . . -
$$ - . - . . X X . X O O O . O X X . X X O O . -
$$ - . - . X . O . O . . . O . . X . X O . O . -
$$ - . - . O O O . X O O . . O O . O X . . X . -
$$ - . - O . . X . . . O O . O . . . X X X X X -
$$ - . - . . . X . . . O . . O . X X X X O O O -
$$ - 5 - X O O , . X . O . O O X X O O O O X . -
$$ - . - X . . O X . . O . O . X O O O . X X X -
$$ - . - X . . O X . . O . O . X O O X X X O O -
$$ - . - X X . . X . . O . O . X O O O X X X O -
$$ - . - . O O X O X . O . O . X X O O O X O O -
$$ - . - . . X . . X . O . O X . O X X X O O O -
$$ - . - O X X , X . . O . O O O O X . X O O X -
$$ - . - . . . . O X . O . . . . X . 3 X X O X -
$$ - . - O . X . . . X O O O O O O X . X 4 O X -
$$ - . - . X . . . . . . . . . . O X X X 6 O 7 -
$$ +-------------------------------------------+[/go]

...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm8
$$ +-------------------------------------------+
$$ - v - . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . O X . -
$$ - a - . . . . . . . X O O . X O X O . . O . -
$$ - r - . . . . . X . O . . . X O . . O O . . -
$$ - . - . X O , . . . . . O . X . O O X . . . -
$$ - . - . . X X . X O O O . O X X . X X O O . -
$$ - . - . X . O . O . . . O . . X . X O . O . -
$$ - . - . O O O . X O O . . O O . O X . . X . -
$$ - . - O . . X . . . O O . O . . . X X X X X -
$$ - . - . . . X . . . O . . O . X X X X O O O -
$$ - O - X O O , . X . O . O O X X O O O O X . -
$$ - 3 - X . . O X . . O . O . X O O O . X X X -
$$ - . - X . . O X . . O . O . X O O X X X O O -
$$ - . - X X . . X . . O . O . X O O O X X X O -
$$ - . - . O O X O X . O . O . X X O O O X O O -
$$ - . - . . X . . X . O . O X . O X X X O O O -
$$ - . - O X X , X . . O . O O O O X . X O O . -
$$ - . - . . . . O X . O . . . 4 X 2 O X X O 1 -
$$ - . - O . X . . . X O O O O O O X . X X O . -
$$ - . - . X . . . . . . . . . . O X X X X O O -
$$ +-------------------------------------------+[/go]

...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm12
$$ +-------------------------------------------+
$$ - v - . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . O X . -
$$ - a - . . . . . . . X O O . X O X O . . O . -
$$ - r - . . . . . X . O . . . X O . . O O . . -
$$ - . - . X O , . . . . . O . X . O O X . . . -
$$ - . - . . X X . X O O O . O X X . X X O O . -
$$ - . - . X . O . O . . . O . . X . X O . O . -
$$ - . - . O O O . X O O . . O O . O X . . X . -
$$ - . - O . . X . . . O O . O . . . X X X X X -
$$ - . - . . . X . . . O . . O . X X X X O O O -
$$ - O - X O O , . X . O . O O X X O O O O X . -
$$ - X - X . . O X . . O . O . X O O O . X X X -
$$ - . - X . . O X . . O . O . X O O X X X O O -
$$ - . - X X . . X . . O . O . X O O O X X X O -
$$ - . - . O O X O X . O . O . X X O O O X O O -
$$ - . - . . X . . X . O . O X . O X X X O O O -
$$ - . - O X X , X . . O . O O O O X 2 X O O 1 -
$$ - . - . . . . O X . O . . . O . O O X X O X -
$$ - . - O . X . . . X O O O O O O X . X X O 3 -
$$ - . - . X . . . . . . . . . . O X X X X O O -
$$ +-------------------------------------------+[/go]

... there are also two tenuki.

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ +-------------------------------------------+
$$ - v - . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . O X . -
$$ - a - . . . . . . . X O O . X O X O . . O . -
$$ - r - . . . . . X . O . . . X O . . O O . . -
$$ - v - . X O , . . . . . O . X . O O X . . . -
$$ - a - . . X X . X O O O . O X X . X X O O . -
$$ - r - . X . O . O . . . O . . X . X O . O . -
$$ - . - . O O O . X O O . . O O . O X . . X . -
$$ - . - O . . X . . . O O . O . . . X X X X X -
$$ - . - . . . X . . . O . . O . X X X X O O O -
$$ - 3 - X O O , . X . O . O O X X O O O O X . -
$$ - 5 - X . . O X . . O . O . X O O O . X X X -
$$ - . - X . . O X . . O . O . X O O X X X O O -
$$ - . - X X . . X . . O . O . X O O O X X X O -
$$ - . - . O O X O X . O . O . X X O O O X O O -
$$ - . - . . X . . X . O . O X . O X X X O O O -
$$ - . - O X X , X . . O . O O O O X . X O O X -
$$ - . - . . . . O X . O . . . . X . . X X O X -
$$ - . - O . X . . . X O O O O O O X . X 4 O X -
$$ - . - . X . . . . . . . . . . O X X X 6 O 7 -
$$ +-------------------------------------------+[/go]

If Black is forced to capture White's group in the corner, and White does not mind losing points, ...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm8
$$ +-------------------------------------------+
$$ - v - . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . O X . -
$$ - a - . . . . . . . X O O . X O X O . . O . -
$$ - r - . . . . . X . O . . . X O . . O O . . -
$$ - . - . X O , . . . . . O . X . O O X . . . -
$$ - . - . . X X . X O O O . O X X . X X O O . -
$$ - . - . X . O . O . . . O . . X . X O . O . -
$$ - . - . O O O . X O O . . O O . O X . . X . -
$$ - . - O . . X . . . O O . O . . . X X X X X -
$$ - . - . . . X . . . O . . O . X X X X O O O -
$$ - O - X O O , . X . O . O O X X O O O O X . -
$$ - O - X . . O X . . O . O . X O O O . X X X -
$$ - 2 - X . . O X . . O . O . X O O X X X O O -
$$ - 4 - X X . . X . . O . O . X O O O X X X O -
$$ - 6 - . O O X O X . O . O . X X O O O X O O -
$$ - . - . . X . . X . O . O X . O X X X O O O -
$$ - . - O X X , X . . O . O O O O X . X O O 3 -
$$ - . - . . . . O X . O . . . . X . . X X O 1 -
$$ - . - O . X . . . X O O O O O O X . X X O 5 -
$$ - . - . X . . . . . . . . . . O X X X X O O -
$$ +-------------------------------------------+[/go]

... she can play five moves in a row elsewhere.

_________________
The really most difficult Go problem ever: http://igohatsuyoron120.de/index.htm
Igo Hatsuyoron #120 (still unresolved by professionals, maybe solved by three amateurs)


This post by Cassandra was liked by: Bill Spight
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 Post subject: Re: AI & Igo Hatsuyoron 120
Post #20 Posted: Thu Sep 19, 2019 1:15 pm 
Lives in sente

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Not exactly. In "varvar" if white plays 3 tenuki, black plays 4 at "R3" (the letters are shifted) and then that group is unconditionally alive. Meaning that there is no hurry to capture the corner because the "O6" dragon has LOTS of liberties.

So play continues elsewhere until just dame left or the dragon's liberties have been reduced to the danger point. So white does not get all those tenukis you described, just the tenuki of 3 and sente. By the time black has to use moves to capture the corner, what you have as 9, 11, and 13 become valueless dame plays (and 5 was just white having sente after black 4)

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