How is your positional judgement?
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Bill Spight
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Re: How is your positional judgement?
Hmmmm. No discussion. Is this one too easy?
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
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Bill Spight
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Re: How is your positional judgement?
My discussionn of Game 8.
Sakata Elo, 9 dan (White) vs. Iwamote Kaoru, 8 dan, 1956.
GoGoD 1956-00-00c.sgf. Komi = 4½ pts.
After
White has a winrate estimate of 93½% (17.9k playouts). However, Black, Iwamoto, won by resignation.
cuts two White groups apart. Then White has many options. 
is Elf's top choice, but it has only 8.3k playouts. After 
I guess the number of playouts dropped below 1.5k, which is why Elf stops there.
Elf reckons that
loses 14% by comparison with the approach to the top left corner at a.
@ 
According to Elf
loses 19½% by comparison with connecting at 14. At the time was considered to be joseki, the connection was not.
is an interesting sacrifice. After 
approaches the top left corner. Then 
captures 
. 
makes a base with sente. OC, Elf does not consider this result as good as approaching the top left corner with .
secures the corner, but Elf thinks it loses 13½% by comparison with the attack at a on the 
stones.
After White makes eye shape.
Sakata Elo, 9 dan (White) vs. Iwamote Kaoru, 8 dan, 1956.
GoGoD 1956-00-00c.sgf. Komi = 4½ pts.
After
White has a winrate estimate of 93½% (17.9k playouts). However, Black, Iwamoto, won by resignation. cuts two White groups apart. Then White has many options. is Elf's top choice, but it has only 8.3k playouts. After I guess the number of playouts dropped below 1.5k, which is why Elf stops there. Elf reckons that
loses 14% by comparison with the approach to the top left corner at a. @ According to Elf
loses 19½% by comparison with connecting at 14. At the time was considered to be joseki, the connection was not. is an interesting sacrifice. After approaches the top left corner. Then captures . makes a base with sente. OC, Elf does not consider this result as good as approaching the top left corner with . secures the corner, but Elf thinks it loses 13½% by comparison with the attack at a on the stones.After
White makes eye shape.
Last edited by Bill Spight on Wed Nov 13, 2019 10:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
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Knotwilg
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Joaz Banbeck
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Re: How is your positional judgement?
Help make L19 more organized. Make an index: https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5207
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Bill Spight
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Re: How is your positional judgement?
I disagree that bots prefer territory, but that discussion would take us too far afield, and is too abstract for my liking right now. We can just ask the bots in any particular position what they like.Knotwilg wrote:A short discussion:
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
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Bill Spight
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Re: How is your positional judgement?
Game 10.
With the usual assumptions, after
Elf estimates a winrate of 91% (119.7k playouts) for one player. Which one is it?
Enjoy.
With the usual assumptions, after
Elf estimates a winrate of 91% (119.7k playouts) for one player. Which one is it?Enjoy.
Last edited by Bill Spight on Thu Oct 03, 2019 7:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
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Kirby
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Knotwilg
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may be too thin but I like Black here.-
Joaz Banbeck
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Re: How is your positional judgement?
and 
as they make territory and eye space while attacking.
, while very shapely, seems the wrong direction.Help make L19 more organized. Make an index: https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5207
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Bill Spight
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Re: How is your positional judgement?
Game 9, discussion of Elf commentary
Takagawa (W) - Rin Kaiho, Meijin Final, Game 3, 1969-09-09a. Komi = 5+ pts. (I.e., 5 pts. with White winning jigo.)
After
Elf gives Black an estimated winrate of 90½% with 33.8k playouts. However, White, Takagawa, won by 8 pts.
Elf's recommended continuation of the game.
leans on the White group on the right side; then 
tops the tree, capping the White center stones. As White runs out, Black's attack promises to erase White's potential in the left center.
Earlier in the game:
Which side to block the 3-3 invasion from is a question I cannot always answer. Usually the difference is small, but in this case it is 10%, and Elf recommends the opposite alternative to the one that appears to be the correct direction of play. (Takagawa would know.
) How come?
Here is a clue. Instead of the traditional joseki (now obsolete) taking outside strength, White plays the two step hane and takes the corner.
White does not make outside strength to work with the stones. Instead, Black has a weakish group in hostile territory. 
secures territory while attacking the Black group. Black makes elbow room with sente and then turn to his territorial framework in the top right quadrant.
Takagawa played at 21, but Elf says to play the two step hane here, as well. (The difference only comes to 1%, however.)
In this variation the stone is weak. reduces the Black framework in the top right, while Black attacks the stone. On balance, this is better for Black than when he makes a weak group on the left side.
In the actual game Black played the hane-and-connect in the bottom left corner, which was joseki before the AI era. In this case that is Elf's choice, too, probably because White ends up overconcentrated, given the stones.
reduces the left side. But loses 16½% and then loses 11%. Each side made smaller errors, but White made three significant mistakes that gave Black a commanding lead.
and make territory with the White wall. Black enlarges the Black moyo and then and 
reduce it. 
blocks on the third line with eye shape. Then secures the corner and threatens to connect underneath.
Takagawa's underneath connection surprised me. It seemed too territorial. I expected something like Elf's in this diagram. is on the frontier of moyos.
threatens to cut the four White stones off, but White turns and then boldly jumps into Black's moyo. OC, Black still has around an 80% advantage.
Takagawa (W) - Rin Kaiho, Meijin Final, Game 3, 1969-09-09a. Komi = 5+ pts. (I.e., 5 pts. with White winning jigo.)
After
Elf gives Black an estimated winrate of 90½% with 33.8k playouts. However, White, Takagawa, won by 8 pts.Elf's recommended continuation of the game.
leans on the White group on the right side; then tops the tree, capping the White center stones. As White runs out, Black's attack promises to erase White's potential in the left center.Earlier in the game:
Which side to block the 3-3 invasion from is a question I cannot always answer. Usually the difference is small, but in this case it is 10%, and Elf recommends the opposite alternative to the one that appears to be the correct direction of play. (Takagawa would know.
) How come?Here is a clue. Instead of the traditional joseki (now obsolete) taking outside strength, White plays the two step hane and takes the corner.
White does not make outside strength to work with the
stones. Instead, Black has a weakish group in hostile territory. secures territory while attacking the Black group. Black makes elbow room with sente and then turn to his territorial framework in the top right quadrant.Takagawa played
at 21, but Elf says to play the two step hane here, as well. (The difference only comes to 1%, however.) In this variation the
stone is weak. reduces the Black framework in the top right, while Black attacks the stone. On balance, this is better for Black than when he makes a weak group on the left side.In the actual game Black played the hane-and-connect in the bottom left corner, which was joseki before the AI era. In this case that is Elf's choice, too, probably because White ends up overconcentrated, given the
stones. reduces the left side. But loses 16½% and then loses 11%. Each side made smaller errors, but White made three significant mistakes that gave Black a commanding lead. and make territory with the White wall. Black enlarges the Black moyo and then and reduce it. blocks on the third line with eye shape. Then secures the corner and threatens to connect underneath.Takagawa's underneath connection surprised me. It seemed too territorial. I expected something like Elf's
in this diagram. is on the frontier of moyos. threatens to cut the four White stones off, but White turns and then boldly jumps into Black's moyo. OC, Black still has around an 80% advantage.
Last edited by Bill Spight on Wed Nov 13, 2019 11:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
-
Bill Spight
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Re: How is your positional judgement?
Game 11.
After Elf gives one player a winrate estimate of 90½% (28.3k playouts). Which player is it?
Enjoy!
After
Elf gives one player a winrate estimate of 90½% (28.3k playouts). Which player is it?Enjoy!
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
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Knotwilg
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Joaz Banbeck
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Re: How is your positional judgement?
Help make L19 more organized. Make an index: https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5207
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Knotwilg
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TelegraphGo
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Re: How is your positional judgement?
This thread has been very enlightening for me. It's surprising how challenging it is to tell the balance of a game when you don't know how it was played! I think I'm getting the hang of it as we go on, starting to figure it out faster and faster. Personally, the only thing that would make this thread any better for me would be the inclusion of "even" as a possibility. After all, when I'm playing a game, it's just as likely to be even as lopsided!