How is your positional judgement?

For lessons, as well as threads about specific moves, and anything else worth studying.
Post Reply
Bill Spight
Honinbo
Posts: 10905
Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2010 1:24 pm
Has thanked: 3651 times
Been thanked: 3373 times

Re: How is your positional judgement?

Post by Bill Spight »

Game 10. Discussion of Elf's commentary

GoGoD 1956-00-00a. Miyashita Shuyo, 8 dan (W) vs. Fujisawa Kuranosuke, 9 dan, 4½ pt. komi

After :w38: Black's estimated winrate: 91% (119.7k playouts). Black, Fujisawa, won by resignation.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm38 Black is ahead
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . X . O . O O . . |
$$ | . . X , O . . X . , . . . X X X X . . |
$$ | . . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X X . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , X . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm39 Elf's continuation of the game
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O 6 7 . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . 5 . . . . . X . O . O O 2 . |
$$ | . . X , O . . X . , . . . X X X X 1 . |
$$ | . . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X X . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O . . . . . . . . 3 . . . |
$$ | . . X . . X O . . 4 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , X . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Black plays sente against the White corner and then plays a shoulder hit against White's orphan in the top right. White bolsters his center group and then Black puts pressure on the White group on the top side.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm46 Elf's continuation of the game, II
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O O X . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . X . . . . . X . O . O O O . |
$$ | . . X , O . . X . , . . . X X X X X . |
$$ | . . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X X . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . X O . . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , X . . . . , . . . . . 6 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . 4 X 2 . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . 3 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
:w46: invades the bottom right corner. After :b51: Black's advantage seems fairly apparent to me.

Earlier play.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm17 Loss of 10½%
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , O . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X 1 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
The natural looking :b17: loses 10½% according to Elf.

BTW, when I say that a move loses a certain percentage, I mean by comparison with Elf's recommended play, not with Elf's winrate estimate of the previous position, as is often the custom with other comentators.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm17 Elf's mainline variation for :b17:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , O . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 6 5 0 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 4 1 2 9 . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . 3 O 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Black tenukies to probe the bottom left corner, leading to a complicated fight.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm27 Elf's mainline variation for :b17: II
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , O . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 7 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 4 3 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 0 O 1 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X O X . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O X 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

White secures a large corner in exchange for outside strength.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm37 Elf's mainline variation for :b17: III
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 O . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . 2 X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 6 X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X O 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X O X . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Then White makes a ko in the top left.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm18 Elf's recommended variation for :w18:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , O . . 0 . , . . 9 . . X . . . |
$$ | . . 1 X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . 6 X 4 . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . 5 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
After the clamp of :w18: in the top left, :b19: encloses the top right corner. Then :w20: invades the bottom right corner, leading to Black building a large sphere of influence on the right side into the center. :w26: makes a shoulder hit against the top right corner, and :b27: starts a large scale attack against :w26:. Bear in mind that Elf considers this around 10% worse for Black than the previous variation. :)
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm18 :w18: loses 25%
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , O . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
After :b17: loses 10½% :w18: returns the favor in spades, losing 25%, a real blunder. :blackeye: :b19: was the 3-3 attachment in the top left corner. Elf agrees with that choice of plays.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm20 Elf's mainline after :w18:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 8 6 . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 7 X O . . . 0 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 9 1 2 O . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . 3 X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 X O X X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
We have already seen Elf's recommendation for :w18: , the attachment at C-15. This variation shows Elf's recommended continuation for White after the blunder of :w18:.

:w20: cuts off the 3-3 stone. :b25: is played as a sacrifice. :b29: makes some strength on the top side in exchange for the corner sacrifice.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm30 Elf's mainline after :w18: II
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 5 X X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X O . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X O X X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 2 1 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , 4 . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 9 6 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Next White bolsters his center and then nails down the top left corner. Then Black leans on the bottom left corner to strengthen his group on the left.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm26 Loss of 11%
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , O . . X . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . a X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
A little later in the game, Elf thinks that the solid connection, :w26: , loses 11% by comparison with a.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm26 Kikashi first
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , O . . X . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X 2 X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 1 X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 6 4 X O 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 5 3 . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Elf says to play this kikashi first. When you see it, it looks kind of obvious. I doubt that Miyashita overlooked this. The bots seem to be less concerned than humans about aji keshi. ;)
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm26 Elf's recommended play after :w26:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , O . . X . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X O O . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X X . . . . . . . . 0 . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . . 3 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . a , 2 . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . 8 X 6 . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . 7 5 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
In the game :w28: was played at a. Elf prefers the jump in the center by 1%, which is well within any margin of error, but I thought that this variation was of interest. To my mind, leaving the four White stones just sitting there is almost an admission that White's recent play in the center was erroneous.
Last edited by Bill Spight on Wed Nov 13, 2019 11:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.
Top
Bill Spight
Honinbo
Posts: 10905
Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2010 1:24 pm
Has thanked: 3651 times
Been thanked: 3373 times

Re: How is your positional judgement?

Post by Bill Spight »

TelegraphGo wrote:Personally, the only thing that would make this thread any better for me would be the inclusion of "even" as a possibility. After all, when I'm playing a game, it's just as likely to be even as lopsided!
I agree that even is an important category. However, I think that these problems are hard enough as is. :)

For reference, I am providing some examples which Elf evaluates as even. Hidden out of courtesy. :)
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm28 Cho Hun-hyeon, 9 dan (W) - Lee Chang-ho, 7 dan, 1995-09-23a
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X . X O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . X O O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . X O , X . . 1 . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O . O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Black winrate 51% (28.6k playouts)
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm28 Cho Chikun, 9 dan (W) - O Rissei, 9 dan 1998-09-09a
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . X . . . O X O . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . X X O X . . O X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O 1 . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Black winrate 49½% (112.5k playouts)
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm27 Kudo Norio, 9 dan (W) - Kyo Kagon, 9 dan, 1923-12-05a
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . X O . . , . . . . O , X . . |
$$ | . . . . O O 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Black winrate 49½% (89.2k playouts)
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm33 Hashimoto Utaro, 8 dan (W) - Sakata Eio, 7 dan 1951-05-31a
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . X . . . . O X . X . O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X O O O . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . O X X X O . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . O . . . 1 . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Black winrate 50½% (92.5k playouts)
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm35 Ryu Shikun, 9 dan (W) - Yoda Norimoto, 9 dan 2016-09-01e
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . O . . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . O , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O O . X . , . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X X O X . . O . . . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . X . X 1 O . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Black winrate 51% (30k playouts)
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.
Top
Bill Spight
Honinbo
Posts: 10905
Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2010 1:24 pm
Has thanked: 3651 times
Been thanked: 3373 times

Re: How is your positional judgement?

Post by Bill Spight »

Game 12.

After :b29: Elf estimates a winrate of 96½% (8.8k playouts) for one player. Which player is it?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm29 White to play
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , O . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . X . O . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Enjoy! :D
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.
Top
TelegraphGo
Lives with ko
Posts: 131
Joined: Sat Oct 05, 2019 12:32 am
Rank: AGA 4 dan
GD Posts: 0
Universal go server handle: telegraphgo
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 18 times

Re: How is your positional judgement?

Post by TelegraphGo »

96.5%?! :shock:
It will be quite embarrassing if I'm backing the wrong horse here. I'm tempted to double-check my analysis with an AI before sounding like an idiot, but I'm really confident to take white every time here. The black wall in the upper left is perfectly nullified by the surrounding white stones - not only can B not play anywhere good to gain locally, but W has the possibility of C14 later, after which every W stone is optimal and B is in pain.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$cm1 W will probably get to play this later.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , O . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . Q . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . X . O . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Also, it is white's move, so W will take sente in the fight on the bottom. I expect that one of the best ways is attaching on top at H4, aiming at making B stupidly overconcentrated. B can resist the following variation, but will still be in similar amounts of pain.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm30 B makes about 5 points.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , O . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X M . 2 1 3 , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X M M 4 X . O . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . M M . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Also, there's no good direction for B to attack the right side two-space for W right now, so it's much stronger than it looks. Weakness needs to be converted to territory at some point! Also, B will need to spend another move in both the top right and the bottom right if he wants secure territory. It's easy to see that W should take control of the game, with every single interesting area having a good followup for W and not for B. I would evaluate this board as worth maybe 2-3 handicap stones in W's favor.

Still, 96.5% is more than I've seen in some mathematically winning endgames! I wonder if the ELF is so secure in saying that W is better precisely because of W's whole-board control. In most games, evaluation is really just a balance of one player's advantages versus their opponent's advantages. In this game, B has no clear advantages :oops: so it's easy to say that W must be winning with perfect play. I didn't think that neural networks 'thought' like this, though, so I'm a little curious as to the implications.
Suppose we replaced W's light two-space on the right side with a heavier weak group, and either the bottom or the top became more worth development by attack, but W is given approximately appropriate compensation on the left somewhere. The intent is that B would have an area of hope somewhere to counter W's advantages globally. Does ELF's evaluation go down, even if the optimal play has one side leading by a similar margin of points? I know bots have a high value on 'initiative' or general control over the flow of the game, but this example in particular seems obscene. Fascinating, though!
Top
Uberdude
Judan
Posts: 6727
Joined: Thu Nov 24, 2011 11:35 am
Rank: UK 4 dan
GD Posts: 0
KGS: Uberdude 4d
OGS: Uberdude 7d
Location: Cambridge, UK
Has thanked: 436 times
Been thanked: 3718 times

Re: How is your positional judgement?

Post by Uberdude »

@TelegraphGo et al
My instinct was black, based on the right side black having efficient corners whilst white has a weak 2 space extension on side (and bots love corners over sides), top left white hanging connection is old joseki that's too slow, bottom left yes black is too close extension but white k3 is crap too, and it's like a 3-3 shoulder hit joseki where both made mistakes: black played bad d3 instead of extend, but then white played slack extend instead of hane so maybe it's about even locally. And 32 in your var can trivially extend up and cut is captured without and bad aji typical of the 2 step hane tesuji. And k16 is another vague side stone doing nothing in particular.
Top
Bill Spight
Honinbo
Posts: 10905
Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2010 1:24 pm
Has thanked: 3651 times
Been thanked: 3373 times

Re: How is your positional judgement?

Post by Bill Spight »

TelegraphGo wrote:96.5%?! :shock:
Yes, hard to believe, isn't it? :o But, as Uberdude and others have pointed out, Elf is the most extreme of the bots in its winrate estimates. It will be interesting to see what LZ and KataGo say. :)

Also, this estimate is backed by only 8.8k playouts, so it is not all that reliable. I don't know why, as :b29: in the game was also Elf's top choice. In the commentaries Elf's choice sometimes has more than 200k playouts.

Also, with the possible exception of AlphaGoTeach, I do not think that the winrate estimates are good to 0.1%. That's why I round to the nearest ½. :)
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.
Top
Tryss
Lives in gote
Posts: 502
Joined: Tue May 24, 2011 1:07 pm
Rank: KGS 2k
GD Posts: 100
KGS: Tryss
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 153 times

Re: How is your positional judgement?

Post by Tryss »

Katago evaluation :
Over 30k+ playouts, Katago evaluate Black at +7.8pts and 68% winrate (with 7.5 komi):
Katago.png
Katago.png (1.57 MiB) Viewed 13835 times
Top
User avatar
Knotwilg
Oza
Posts: 2432
Joined: Fri Jan 14, 2011 6:53 am
Rank: KGS 2d OGS 1d Fox 4d
GD Posts: 0
KGS: Artevelde
OGS: Knotwilg
Online playing schedule: UTC 18:00 - 22:00
Location: Ghent, Belgium
Has thanked: 360 times
Been thanked: 1021 times
Contact:
Contact Knotwilg

Re: How is your positional judgement?

Post by Knotwilg »

I say Black, based on the following no-Lizzie analysis. I could miss something in White's favor.
Top
Uberdude
Judan
Posts: 6727
Joined: Thu Nov 24, 2011 11:35 am
Rank: UK 4 dan
GD Posts: 0
KGS: Uberdude 4d
OGS: Uberdude 7d
Location: Cambridge, UK
Has thanked: 436 times
Been thanked: 3718 times

Re: How is your positional judgement?

Post by Uberdude »

Rather than performing a count / positional evaluation of the current position, I will try to imagine a plausible sequence of play to reach it and rate the moves with my Elf hat on, a whole game tewari as it were.

The order of play in the various major areas of top left, right side, lower left might not be like this but its vaguely plausible.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 0 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 9 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . 6 . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 3 . . . |
$$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
Elf probably thinks 2 and 4 lose a bit, -5%. 6 is a vague side move, shimari is better, -10%. 7 maybe prefer low, but maybe not with 6 there. Meh. 9 isn't joseki book ish but reminds me of AlphaGo vs Lee Sedol game 1 so let's say it's ok.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 , 4 . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X 5 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 7 . O . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 0 9 . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . 8 . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
12 hanging connect is slow, -7. 16 is wishy washy, base is more important so should kosumi at c14 or tenuki, - >5. 17 is probably ok but how about peep first? 18 is another vague side moves, Elf doesn't like side moves (e.g. top right 3-3 better, real profit). -8, also too close to o3 but maybe o3 came later. Shoulder hit and push seems ok.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm21
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , O . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . |
$$ | . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O 3 . . . 5 . O . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
Not really sure 23 would happen in a pro game, because 24 would hane, so let's say equally bad and I don't know how this shape happened (maybe approach black 4-4, tenuki, 3-3 and then block lower side and white connects in reply to bulge point?). 5 is cramped, but makes k3 bad so ok. 26 side move again -5. 28 is probably a little slack, -3, because it allows black to make good solid profit and should approach at 29 and admit there will be fighting. (Later percents are smaller as less % left to lose).

Sum of my white badness: dia 1: 5+10, dia 2: 7+8+5=20, dia 3: 8. Total 42. That's 92%, near enough to 96.
Top
bernds
Lives with ko
Posts: 259
Joined: Sun Apr 30, 2017 11:18 pm
Rank: 2d
GD Posts: 0
Has thanked: 46 times
Been thanked: 116 times

Re: How is your positional judgement?

Post by bernds »

Bill Spight wrote:Game 12.
Disclaimer: I checked with KataGo (and Kombilo) before posting. But my initial thoughts were: White has made two side-splitting moves, on the right and at the bottom, and the bots tend not to like these. The top left doesn't look that efficient for White, especially with those two center stones, and the K16 stone doesn't look all that great either.
When I tried to set up the game position for KataGo, I had serious trouble finding reasonable-looking moves for White to arrive at the position. It all seemed somewhat artificial, and the top left looks like the result of a one-space high pincer, which I think wasn't that well-regarded even before the bot age.
Top
User avatar
Knotwilg
Oza
Posts: 2432
Joined: Fri Jan 14, 2011 6:53 am
Rank: KGS 2d OGS 1d Fox 4d
GD Posts: 0
KGS: Artevelde
OGS: Knotwilg
Online playing schedule: UTC 18:00 - 22:00
Location: Ghent, Belgium
Has thanked: 360 times
Been thanked: 1021 times
Contact:
Contact Knotwilg

Re: How is your positional judgement?

Post by Knotwilg »

LZ analysis with comments
Top
Uberdude
Judan
Posts: 6727
Joined: Thu Nov 24, 2011 11:35 am
Rank: UK 4 dan
GD Posts: 0
KGS: Uberdude 4d
OGS: Uberdude 7d
Location: Cambridge, UK
Has thanked: 436 times
Been thanked: 3718 times

Re: How is your positional judgement?

Post by Uberdude »

Knotwilg, that press and wedge middlegame sequence was kind of debunked (though most likely not common knowledge in the West and probably not for all pros in East either) even before AI, and AI does generally take a dim view of it. See a nice tewari showing why on Viktor Lin's blog at #4 in https://viktorlingo.com/2018/02/16/top- ... ol-part-2/
Top
User avatar
Knotwilg
Oza
Posts: 2432
Joined: Fri Jan 14, 2011 6:53 am
Rank: KGS 2d OGS 1d Fox 4d
GD Posts: 0
KGS: Artevelde
OGS: Knotwilg
Online playing schedule: UTC 18:00 - 22:00
Location: Ghent, Belgium
Has thanked: 360 times
Been thanked: 1021 times
Contact:
Contact Knotwilg

Re: How is your positional judgement?

Post by Knotwilg »

Uberdude wrote:Knotwilg, that press and wedge middlegame sequence was kind of debunked (though most likely not common knowledge in the West and probably not for all pros in East either) even before AI, and AI does generally take a dim view of it. See a nice tewari showing why on Viktor Lin's blog at #4 in https://viktorlingo.com/2018/02/16/top- ... ol-part-2/
Thanks! Once I saw the AI response, I remembered having seen before that this was already subtoptimal by human standards. I hadn't got rid of it yet though :)
Top
Bill Spight
Honinbo
Posts: 10905
Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2010 1:24 pm
Has thanked: 3651 times
Been thanked: 3373 times

Re: How is your positional judgement?

Post by Bill Spight »

My discussion of Elf's commentary on Game 11.
Lee Changho 7 dan (W) - Cho Hun-hyeon 9 dan, 1995-01-04c

After :w34: Elf estimates a 90½% winrate for White. White, Lee Changho, won by resignation.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm34 White is ahead.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O X . . . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . X . . X , . . . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm35 Game continuation.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O X . . . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . X . . X , . . . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 8 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 6 X , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . 2 4 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . O 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
These game plays are Elf's top choices.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm43 Elf's mainline for :b43: (135.5k playouts)
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O X . . . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . X . . X , . . . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 1 X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 5 4 O . O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . 9 3 6 . . . . . O . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . 7 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
White connects to safety, Black makes life in the bottom left corner.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm52 Elf's mainline, continued
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O X . . . 4 8 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O X . . . 2 3 . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . X . . X 1 . . . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . 6 5 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . O . . 7 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X X O . . . . . O . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
White reduces Black territorial moyo on the top side.

Earlier in the game.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm19 Play joseki, lose 22½%
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . X . . . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 O . . . . . , . . . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
I supppose we should regard this as a blunder. It looks like a cultural blind spot. The hane at a is the popular choice among humans, but Waltheri ( http://ps.waltheri.net ) shows :b19: played about ⅛ of the time in its database. IMO, that is enough to make it joseki. Still, as the game record indicates, Black makes small life with bad shape in the corner. This move was barely on Elf's radar, with only 1 playout, while a got 35.3k playouts. This option may cease to be joseki in the near future. :)
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm19 Elf's mainline for :b19:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 1 2 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . X 6 . . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . O . |
$$ | . 5 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X 0 . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . B 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
OC, in those days :w22: was generally regarded as a beginner's play. It still does not show up in Waltheri's database. ;) :w26: was heretical at the time, as it gives Black an ideal extension from the :bc: and :b27:. :w28: starts a potentially complex fight. Elf prefers it to a by only 1%, however, well within Elf's margin of error.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm32 Play joseki, lose 18½%
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O X . . . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . X . . X , . . . . . X . O . |
$$ | . b O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 2 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
When I was learning go, :b33: was the textbook reply to :w32:. It still is the plurality choice in Waltheri's database. Elf prefers to form a small base at a, by 18½%, with 107.5k playouts to 2. :o To me, and maybe to Cho, Black a does not appeal, as it approaches White's strength. (White b, as Knotwilg has pointed out, is sente against Black's corner.)
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm33 Elf's mainline for :b33:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O X . . . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . X . . X , . . . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 8 . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . 1 3 . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 5 2 . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X 4 . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
:w34: is a standard tesuji against the one space base. :b35: replies strongly to keep White separated while running out into the center..
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm42 Elf's mainline, continued
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 2 . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O X . . . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . X . . X , . . . . . X . O . |
$$ | . 1 O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . X 5 3 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . 4 . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
:w42: takes the sente against the corner, then :w44: tops the tree, attacking Black from the center. I would anticipate more play in the bottom left, but I guess that Black's next play would have fewer than 1500 playouts, which seems to be the Elf team's cutoff point for showing Elf's choices.
Last edited by Bill Spight on Wed Nov 13, 2019 11:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.
Top
Bill Spight
Honinbo
Posts: 10905
Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2010 1:24 pm
Has thanked: 3651 times
Been thanked: 3373 times

Re: How is your positional judgement?

Post by Bill Spight »

Game 13

After :w30: Elf gives one player a winrate of 88½% (30k playouts). Which player is it?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm30 Black to play.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X X X . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O O O X X O O O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X X X . X O O X . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Enjoy! :)
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.
Top
Post Reply

Return to “Study Group”