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Online Bill Spight
 Post subject: Beat Elf!
Post #1 Posted: Fri May 17, 2019 11:54 pm 
Honinbo

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Elf 1 missed the best play in this position. Can you find it?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc White to play
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . X X O X X X . X X X . . |
$$ | . . X , O . O X O O . O . . . O X O . |
$$ | . X . X X X O O X O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . O . X O . . X . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . X . O O X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . O X X X O X X . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O O X O O X . O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . O O O X X O . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X O O X . O . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . X X X O . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O O O X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X X X O X O . O . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O O O . X O X O . . . O . O . O . |
$$ | . . . O . O O X X O . . X X X X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Enjoy! :)

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At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
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Everything with love. Stay safe.


Last edited by Uberdude on Sat May 18, 2019 1:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
Added coordinates

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Offline Uberdude
 Post subject: Re: Beat Elf!
Post #2 Posted: Sat May 18, 2019 12:02 am 
Judan

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h1, Pat the belly

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Online Bill Spight
 Post subject: Re: Beat Elf!
Post #3 Posted: Sat May 18, 2019 2:48 am 
Honinbo

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Uberdude wrote:
h1, Pat the belly


You and Satsugen. :)

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Offline Kirby
 Post subject: Re: Beat Elf!
Post #4 Posted: Sat May 18, 2019 3:30 am 
Honinbo

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Tygem: 커비라고해
I first saw this shape in one of the Train Like a Pro books. For whatever reason, the problem took me ages to solve the first time I saw it.

Now, I am reminded of this shape whenever I see two stones on the third line with a hane like that.

I have used this tesuji exactly once in a game. I still remember it, because I was so excited to see it in a game.

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Offline zermelo
 Post subject: Re: Beat Elf!
Post #5 Posted: Sat May 18, 2019 3:50 am 
Dies in gote

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LeelaZero (should be about latest network) did not find the correct answer in 1.5 million playouts either, though it spent 6k playouts on the correct move at some point. It also thought white is losing. When I showed the correct answer, it took 50k playouts or so to see that it works and white has then a good lead.

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Offline Calvin Clark
 Post subject: Re: Beat Elf!
Post #6 Posted: Sat May 18, 2019 7:47 am 
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I spent about 30 seconds looking in vain mentally at liberty situations in the wrong part of the board, then sat back just saw it.



Once I was in a car with with some friends and I spotted someone far ahead and said she's attractive. After we past my friends were amazed. "How did you know? Your vision is not that good!". I said, "Maybe, but a couple million years of human evolution can optimize for the right things. If it were a road sign I'd have had no chance."

Human brain feature detection FTW.

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Offline Knotwilg
 Post subject: Re: Beat Elf!
Post #7 Posted: Sat May 18, 2019 9:09 am 
Gosei
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patting the raccoon’s belly

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Offline Leon
 Post subject: Re: Beat Elf!
Post #8 Posted: Sun May 19, 2019 4:52 pm 
Dies in gote

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Hmm, I am quite suprised about the reports that Elf and Leela both miss the tesuji, as I expect an average 1 dan to find it in a serious game.

Is that local position an obstacle for them and can we find this blindspot in similar positions? What about other AI?
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Online Bill Spight
 Post subject: Re: Beat Elf!
Post #9 Posted: Sun May 19, 2019 5:37 pm 
Honinbo

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Leon wrote:
Hmm, I am quite suprised about the reports that Elf and Leela both miss the tesuji, as I expect an average 1 dan to find it in a serious game.

Is that local position an obstacle for them and can we find this blindspot in similar positions? What about other AI?


I think that the problem for self-taught AI is the rarity of the position. Given enough playouts, they could make the right play, but even Elf 1, given many playouts as a commentator, did not give the position enough playouts to choose the right play. Once the player in the game, Honinbo Satsugen Meijin, made the play, Elf recognized its value. But if you miss a play and your opponent, who is a slight variation of yourself, also misses it, it has to occur in many games before one of you catches on.

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Offline Uberdude
 Post subject: Re: Beat Elf!
Post #10 Posted: Mon May 20, 2019 3:06 am 
Judan

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I tried this position out on a few bots with playouts in the tens to hundred thousands. None of them found it as the best move though a few did devote some playouts to it. Once I played it minigo 990 was the fastest (a few seconds) to realise it worked (noticing that against the other black hane you had to do it again as mainline variation in Lizzie on hover). I would be interested if any of the old Monte Carlo bots (either with or without a policy network) could find it.
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Offline Gomoto
 Post subject: Re: Beat Elf!
Post #11 Posted: Mon May 20, 2019 8:36 am 
Gosei

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sgf?
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Offline Uberdude
 Post subject: Re: Beat Elf!
Post #12 Posted: Mon May 20, 2019 9:18 am 
Judan

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Gomoto wrote:
sgf?

Click the diagram to download sgf of position.

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Online Bill Spight
 Post subject: Re: Beat Elf!
Post #13 Posted: Mon May 20, 2019 9:48 am 
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I'll load an SGF with some commentary this morning. :)

Omachidosama.

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Online Bill Spight
 Post subject: Re: Beat Elf!
Post #14 Posted: Mon May 20, 2019 10:46 am 
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Castle Game. White was Honinbo Satsugen Meijin.
Comments based on published Elf 1 commentary.

Go to move 131.


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Offline Gomoto
 Post subject: Re: Beat Elf!
Post #15 Posted: Sat May 25, 2019 9:16 am 
Gosei

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Quote:
I would be interested if any of the old Monte Carlo bots (either with or without a policy network) could find it.


No

At least not Zen 7

thanks for the hint on sgf downloading of diagrams, I always forget and only click here to show code ... :oops:
sgf downloading seems to be more difficult for me than playing go

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Online Bill Spight
 Post subject: Re: Beat Elf!
Post #16 Posted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 7:14 am 
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I just found this and haven't analyzed it, but Elf may have missed the best play here.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm50 Assume 7.5 komi. White to play.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O X X . X X O X . . O . . O . . |
$$ | . X X O O . X X O O X . X . O . . . . |
$$ | . X O , O X . X O , X O . O . , X . . |
$$ | . X . O O O X O O . X . X X . X . . . |
$$ | . X X . X O X X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X . X . X O . X O . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O X O O . X . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . O O . O X X . O O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . O X O X X X X O . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X O O X O O O O X O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O X X X . . . O X O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O X X . X O . O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O X O O . O . X X . 2 . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O X X . . X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , O O X 1 X , X . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . O X X . . O . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

After Black 151 Black has 6 White prisoners, White has 3 Black prisoners. This was a no komi game, but with Elf, let's assume 7.5 komi. Where should White play now?

Enjoy! :D

BTW, I am curious what other bots have to say, too. :) The human play was not on Elf's radar.

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Offline Gomoto
 Post subject: Re: Beat Elf!
Post #17 Posted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 3:18 pm 
Gosei

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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm50 Assume 7.5 komi. White to play.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O X X . X X O X . . O . . O . . |
$$ | . X X O O . X X O O X . X . O . . . . |
$$ | . X O , O X . X O , X O . O . , X . . |
$$ | . X . O O O X O O . X . X X . X . . . |
$$ | . X X . X O X X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X . X . X O . X O . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O X O O . X . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . O O . O X X . O O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . O X O X X X X O . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X O O X O O O O X O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O X X X . . . O X O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O X X . X O . O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O X O O . O . X X . 2 . O . . |
$$ | . . . . b X O X X . . X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , O O X 1 X , X . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . O X X . . O . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X O . O . a . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


If I do not change the komi of the sgf KataGo recommends a, if I change it to 7.5 it votes for b (60% white 82k playouts)

I did not trust my results and checked again with 0 komi, b (21,8 white 32k)

LZ network b (65,3% 154k)
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Online Bill Spight
 Post subject: Re: Beat Elf!
Post #18 Posted: Tue Oct 15, 2019 7:59 am 
Honinbo

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Just to catch up quickly, I have to run.

Quote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm50 Assume 7.5 komi. White to play.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O X X . X X O X . . O . . O . . |
$$ | . X X O O . X X O O X . X . O . . . . |
$$ | . X O , O X . X O , X O . O . , X . . |
$$ | . X . O O O X O O . X . X X . X . . . |
$$ | . X X . X O X X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X . X . X O . X O . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O X O O . X . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . O O . O X X . O O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . O X O X X X X O . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X O O X O O O O X O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O X X X . . . O X O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O X X . X O . O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O X O O . O . X X . 2 . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O X X . . X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , O O X 1 X , X . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . O X X . . O . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

After Black 151 Black has 6 White prisoners, White has 3 Black prisoners. This was a no komi game, but with Elf, let's assume 7.5 komi. Where should White play now?


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm52 Elf's play. 55.5% White winrate estimate (29.7k playouts)
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O X X . X X O X . . O . . O . . |
$$ | . X X O O . X X O O X . X . O . . . . |
$$ | . X O , O X . X O , X O . O . , X . . |
$$ | . X . O O O X O O . X . X X . X . . . |
$$ | . X X . X O X X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X . X . X O . X O . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O X O O . X . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . O O . O X X . O O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . O X O X X X X O . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X O O X O O O O X O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O X X X . . . O X O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O X X . X O . O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O X O O . O . X X . X . O . . |
$$ | . . . . 1 X O X X . . X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , O O . O X , X . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . O X X . . O . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Versus Yamamoto Genkichi's play in 1803.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm52 Human play (0 playouts). White winrate estimate, inherited from Elf's reply, :b53:, 65.4% (14.9k playouts)
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O X X . X X O X . . O . . O . . |
$$ | . X X O O 1 X X O O X . X . O . . . . |
$$ | . X O , O X . X O , X O . O . , X . . |
$$ | . X . O O O X O O . X . X X . X . . . |
$$ | . X X . X O X X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X . X . X O . X O . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O X O O . X . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . O O . O X X . O O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . O X O X X X X O . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X O O X O O O O X O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O X X X . . . O X O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O X X . X O . O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O X O O . O . X X . X . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O X X . . X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , O O . O X , X . O . . 2 . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . O X X . . O . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


When Elf sees Genkichi's play, it thinks it is 10% better than it's first choice, despite being off Elf's radar entirely. :)

Edit:

Elf's mainline for :w52:.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm52 Elf's mainline variation
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O X X . X X O X . . O . . O . . |
$$ | . X X O O 7 X X O O X . X . O . . . . |
$$ | . X O , O X . X O , X O . O . , X . . |
$$ | . X . O O O X O O . X . X X . X . . . |
$$ | . X X . X O X X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X . X 2 X O . X O . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O X O O . X . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . O O 3 O X X . O O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . O X O X X X X O . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X O O X O O O O X O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O X X X . . . O X O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O X X . X O . O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O X O O . O . X X . X . O . . |
$$ | . . . . 1 X O X X . . X O . . . 6 . . |
$$ | . . X , O O . O X , X . O . 4 , . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . O X X . . O . . 5 O . . . |
$$ | . . X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Elf eventually gets around to Genkichi's move.

Elf's mainline reply to Genkichi's :w52:,

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm52 Elf's mainline reply
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O X X . X X O X . . O . . O . . |
$$ | . X X O O 1 X X O O X . X . O . . . . |
$$ | . X O , O X . X O , X O . O . , X . . |
$$ | . X . O O O X O O . X . X X . X . . . |
$$ | . X X . X O X X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X . X . X O . X O . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O X O O . X . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . O O . O X X . O O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . O X O X X X X O . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X O O X O O O O X O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O X X X . . . O X O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O X X . X O . O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O X O O . O . X X . X . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O X X . . X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , O O . O X , X . O . 4 2 3 . . |
$$ | . . . X O . O X X . . O . . 5 O 6 . . |
$$ | . . X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

_________________
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Online Bill Spight
 Post subject: Re: Beat Elf!
Post #19 Posted: Tue Oct 15, 2019 11:04 am 
Honinbo

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I ran across this one the other day.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm26 Black to play.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . X X O X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O O X O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Enjoy! :D

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
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Banana Republic. It's not just a store anymore.

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Offline Uberdude
 Post subject: Re: Beat Elf!
Post #20 Posted: Tue Oct 15, 2019 11:27 am 
Judan

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Easy if your policy network is biased for cool moves :) . There's a 3-4 joseki that has the same tesuji down one line that I tried to get people to play but they never cooperated.
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