It is currently Sat Dec 14, 2019 10:53 am

View unanswered posts | View active topics View unread posts | View new posts | View your posts


Board index » Improve Your Game » Study Group

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]



Post new topic Reply to topic  Page 1 of 2
  [ 23 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
  Print view Previous topic | Next topic 
Author Message
Offline Bill Spight
 Post subject: Beat Elf!
Post #1 Posted: Fri May 17, 2019 11:54 pm 
Honinbo

Posts: 9226
Liked others: 2826
Was liked: 3111
Elf 1 missed the best play in this position. Can you find it?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc White to play
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . X X O X X X . X X X . . |
$$ | . . X , O . O X O O . O . . . O X O . |
$$ | . X . X X X O O X O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . O . X O . . X . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . X . O O X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . O X X X O X X . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O O X O O X . O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . O O O X X O . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X O O X . O . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . X X X O . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O O O X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X X X O X O . O . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O O O . X O X O . . . O . O . O . |
$$ | . . . O . O O X X O . . X X X X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Enjoy! :)

_________________
The Adkins Principle:

At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?

— Winona Adkins

Looking for perfection is the only way to motivate yourself.
— Ronnie O'Sullivan

"Elvis, can't we please go home?"
— One of the Jordanaires


Last edited by Uberdude on Sat May 18, 2019 1:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
Added coordinates

This post by Bill Spight was liked by 2 people: Applebaps, Knotwilg
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline Uberdude
 Post subject: Re: Beat Elf!
Post #2 Posted: Sat May 18, 2019 12:02 am 
Judan

Posts: 6240
Location: Cambridge, UK
Liked others: 356
Was liked: 3383
Rank: UK 4 dan
KGS: Uberdude 4d
OGS: Uberdude 7d
h1, Pat the belly

This post by Uberdude was liked by: Bill Spight
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline Bill Spight
 Post subject: Re: Beat Elf!
Post #3 Posted: Sat May 18, 2019 2:48 am 
Honinbo

Posts: 9226
Liked others: 2826
Was liked: 3111
Uberdude wrote:
h1, Pat the belly


You and Satsugen. :)

_________________
The Adkins Principle:

At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?

— Winona Adkins

Looking for perfection is the only way to motivate yourself.
— Ronnie O'Sullivan

"Elvis, can't we please go home?"
— One of the Jordanaires
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline Kirby
 Post subject: Re: Beat Elf!
Post #4 Posted: Sat May 18, 2019 3:30 am 
Honinbo

Posts: 8745
Liked others: 1492
Was liked: 1487
KGS: Kirby
Tygem: 커비라고해
I first saw this shape in one of the Train Like a Pro books. For whatever reason, the problem took me ages to solve the first time I saw it.

Now, I am reminded of this shape whenever I see two stones on the third line with a hane like that.

I have used this tesuji exactly once in a game. I still remember it, because I was so excited to see it in a game.

_________________
it's be happy, not achieve happiness

This post by Kirby was liked by: Bill Spight
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline zermelo
 Post subject: Re: Beat Elf!
Post #5 Posted: Sat May 18, 2019 3:50 am 
Dies in gote

Posts: 37
Liked others: 69
Was liked: 27
Rank: Euro 1 dan
GD Posts: 7
LeelaZero (should be about latest network) did not find the correct answer in 1.5 million playouts either, though it spent 6k playouts on the correct move at some point. It also thought white is losing. When I showed the correct answer, it took 50k playouts or so to see that it works and white has then a good lead.

This post by zermelo was liked by: Bill Spight
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline Calvin Clark
 Post subject: Re: Beat Elf!
Post #6 Posted: Sat May 18, 2019 7:47 am 
Lives in gote

Posts: 425
Liked others: 183
Was liked: 188
I spent about 30 seconds looking in vain mentally at liberty situations in the wrong part of the board, then sat back just saw it.



Once I was in a car with with some friends and I spotted someone far ahead and said she's attractive. After we past my friends were amazed. "How did you know? Your vision is not that good!". I said, "Maybe, but a couple million years of human evolution can optimize for the right things. If it were a road sign I'd have had no chance."

Human brain feature detection FTW.

This post by Calvin Clark was liked by: Bill Spight
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline Knotwilg
 Post subject: Re: Beat Elf!
Post #7 Posted: Sat May 18, 2019 9:09 am 
Gosei
User avatar

Posts: 1462
Location: Ghent, Belgium
Liked others: 208
Was liked: 648
Rank: Bel 2d KGS 3d TG 4d
KGS: Artevelde
Tygem: Knotwilg
patting the raccoon’s belly

This post by Knotwilg was liked by: Bill Spight
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline Leon
 Post subject: Re: Beat Elf!
Post #8 Posted: Sun May 19, 2019 4:52 pm 
Dies in gote

Posts: 29
Liked others: 8
Was liked: 7
Rank: EGF 2d
Hmm, I am quite suprised about the reports that Elf and Leela both miss the tesuji, as I expect an average 1 dan to find it in a serious game.

Is that local position an obstacle for them and can we find this blindspot in similar positions? What about other AI?
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline Bill Spight
 Post subject: Re: Beat Elf!
Post #9 Posted: Sun May 19, 2019 5:37 pm 
Honinbo

Posts: 9226
Liked others: 2826
Was liked: 3111
Leon wrote:
Hmm, I am quite suprised about the reports that Elf and Leela both miss the tesuji, as I expect an average 1 dan to find it in a serious game.

Is that local position an obstacle for them and can we find this blindspot in similar positions? What about other AI?


I think that the problem for self-taught AI is the rarity of the position. Given enough playouts, they could make the right play, but even Elf 1, given many playouts as a commentator, did not give the position enough playouts to choose the right play. Once the player in the game, Honinbo Satsugen Meijin, made the play, Elf recognized its value. But if you miss a play and your opponent, who is a slight variation of yourself, also misses it, it has to occur in many games before one of you catches on.

_________________
The Adkins Principle:

At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?

— Winona Adkins

Looking for perfection is the only way to motivate yourself.
— Ronnie O'Sullivan

"Elvis, can't we please go home?"
— One of the Jordanaires
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline Uberdude
 Post subject: Re: Beat Elf!
Post #10 Posted: Mon May 20, 2019 3:06 am 
Judan

Posts: 6240
Location: Cambridge, UK
Liked others: 356
Was liked: 3383
Rank: UK 4 dan
KGS: Uberdude 4d
OGS: Uberdude 7d
I tried this position out on a few bots with playouts in the tens to hundred thousands. None of them found it as the best move though a few did devote some playouts to it. Once I played it minigo 990 was the fastest (a few seconds) to realise it worked (noticing that against the other black hane you had to do it again as mainline variation in Lizzie on hover). I would be interested if any of the old Monte Carlo bots (either with or without a policy network) could find it.
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline Gomoto
 Post subject: Re: Beat Elf!
Post #11 Posted: Mon May 20, 2019 8:36 am 
Gosei

Posts: 1365
Location: Earth
Liked others: 519
Was liked: 221
sgf?
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline Uberdude
 Post subject: Re: Beat Elf!
Post #12 Posted: Mon May 20, 2019 9:18 am 
Judan

Posts: 6240
Location: Cambridge, UK
Liked others: 356
Was liked: 3383
Rank: UK 4 dan
KGS: Uberdude 4d
OGS: Uberdude 7d
Gomoto wrote:
sgf?

Click the diagram to download sgf of position.

This post by Uberdude was liked by: Gomoto
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline Bill Spight
 Post subject: Re: Beat Elf!
Post #13 Posted: Mon May 20, 2019 9:48 am 
Honinbo

Posts: 9226
Liked others: 2826
Was liked: 3111
I'll load an SGF with some commentary this morning. :)

Omachidosama.

_________________
The Adkins Principle:

At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?

— Winona Adkins

Looking for perfection is the only way to motivate yourself.
— Ronnie O'Sullivan

"Elvis, can't we please go home?"
— One of the Jordanaires
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline Bill Spight
 Post subject: Re: Beat Elf!
Post #14 Posted: Mon May 20, 2019 10:46 am 
Honinbo

Posts: 9226
Liked others: 2826
Was liked: 3111
Castle Game. White was Honinbo Satsugen Meijin.
Comments based on published Elf 1 commentary.

Go to move 131.


_________________
The Adkins Principle:

At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?

— Winona Adkins

Looking for perfection is the only way to motivate yourself.
— Ronnie O'Sullivan

"Elvis, can't we please go home?"
— One of the Jordanaires
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline Gomoto
 Post subject: Re: Beat Elf!
Post #15 Posted: Sat May 25, 2019 9:16 am 
Gosei

Posts: 1365
Location: Earth
Liked others: 519
Was liked: 221
Quote:
I would be interested if any of the old Monte Carlo bots (either with or without a policy network) could find it.


No

At least not Zen 7

thanks for the hint on sgf downloading of diagrams, I always forget and only click here to show code ... :oops:
sgf downloading seems to be more difficult for me than playing go

This post by Gomoto was liked by: Bill Spight
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline Bill Spight
 Post subject: Re: Beat Elf!
Post #16 Posted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 7:14 am 
Honinbo

Posts: 9226
Liked others: 2826
Was liked: 3111
I just found this and haven't analyzed it, but Elf may have missed the best play here.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm50 Assume 7.5 komi. White to play.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O X X . X X O X . . O . . O . . |
$$ | . X X O O . X X O O X . X . O . . . . |
$$ | . X O , O X . X O , X O . O . , X . . |
$$ | . X . O O O X O O . X . X X . X . . . |
$$ | . X X . X O X X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X . X . X O . X O . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O X O O . X . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . O O . O X X . O O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . O X O X X X X O . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X O O X O O O O X O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O X X X . . . O X O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O X X . X O . O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O X O O . O . X X . 2 . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O X X . . X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , O O X 1 X , X . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . O X X . . O . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

After Black 151 Black has 6 White prisoners, White has 3 Black prisoners. This was a no komi game, but with Elf, let's assume 7.5 komi. Where should White play now?

Enjoy! :D

BTW, I am curious what other bots have to say, too. :) The human play was not on Elf's radar.

_________________
The Adkins Principle:

At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?

— Winona Adkins

Looking for perfection is the only way to motivate yourself.
— Ronnie O'Sullivan

"Elvis, can't we please go home?"
— One of the Jordanaires
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline Gomoto
 Post subject: Re: Beat Elf!
Post #17 Posted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 3:18 pm 
Gosei

Posts: 1365
Location: Earth
Liked others: 519
Was liked: 221
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm50 Assume 7.5 komi. White to play.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O X X . X X O X . . O . . O . . |
$$ | . X X O O . X X O O X . X . O . . . . |
$$ | . X O , O X . X O , X O . O . , X . . |
$$ | . X . O O O X O O . X . X X . X . . . |
$$ | . X X . X O X X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X . X . X O . X O . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O X O O . X . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . O O . O X X . O O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . O X O X X X X O . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X O O X O O O O X O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O X X X . . . O X O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O X X . X O . O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O X O O . O . X X . 2 . O . . |
$$ | . . . . b X O X X . . X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , O O X 1 X , X . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . O X X . . O . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X O . O . a . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


If I do not change the komi of the sgf KataGo recommends a, if I change it to 7.5 it votes for b (60% white 82k playouts)

I did not trust my results and checked again with 0 komi, b (21,8 white 32k)

LZ network b (65,3% 154k)
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline Bill Spight
 Post subject: Re: Beat Elf!
Post #18 Posted: Tue Oct 15, 2019 7:59 am 
Honinbo

Posts: 9226
Liked others: 2826
Was liked: 3111
Just to catch up quickly, I have to run.

Quote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm50 Assume 7.5 komi. White to play.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O X X . X X O X . . O . . O . . |
$$ | . X X O O . X X O O X . X . O . . . . |
$$ | . X O , O X . X O , X O . O . , X . . |
$$ | . X . O O O X O O . X . X X . X . . . |
$$ | . X X . X O X X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X . X . X O . X O . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O X O O . X . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . O O . O X X . O O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . O X O X X X X O . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X O O X O O O O X O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O X X X . . . O X O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O X X . X O . O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O X O O . O . X X . 2 . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O X X . . X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , O O X 1 X , X . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . O X X . . O . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

After Black 151 Black has 6 White prisoners, White has 3 Black prisoners. This was a no komi game, but with Elf, let's assume 7.5 komi. Where should White play now?


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm52 Elf's play. 55.5% White winrate estimate (29.7k playouts)
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O X X . X X O X . . O . . O . . |
$$ | . X X O O . X X O O X . X . O . . . . |
$$ | . X O , O X . X O , X O . O . , X . . |
$$ | . X . O O O X O O . X . X X . X . . . |
$$ | . X X . X O X X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X . X . X O . X O . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O X O O . X . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . O O . O X X . O O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . O X O X X X X O . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X O O X O O O O X O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O X X X . . . O X O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O X X . X O . O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O X O O . O . X X . X . O . . |
$$ | . . . . 1 X O X X . . X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , O O . O X , X . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . O X X . . O . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Versus Yamamoto Genkichi's play in 1803.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm52 Human play (0 playouts). White winrate estimate, inherited from Elf's reply, :b53:, 65.4% (14.9k playouts)
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O X X . X X O X . . O . . O . . |
$$ | . X X O O 1 X X O O X . X . O . . . . |
$$ | . X O , O X . X O , X O . O . , X . . |
$$ | . X . O O O X O O . X . X X . X . . . |
$$ | . X X . X O X X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X . X . X O . X O . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O X O O . X . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . O O . O X X . O O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . O X O X X X X O . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X O O X O O O O X O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O X X X . . . O X O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O X X . X O . O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O X O O . O . X X . X . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O X X . . X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , O O . O X , X . O . . 2 . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . O X X . . O . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


When Elf sees Genkichi's play, it thinks it is 10% better than it's first choice, despite being off Elf's radar entirely. :)

Edit:

Elf's mainline for :w52:.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm52 Elf's mainline variation
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O X X . X X O X . . O . . O . . |
$$ | . X X O O 7 X X O O X . X . O . . . . |
$$ | . X O , O X . X O , X O . O . , X . . |
$$ | . X . O O O X O O . X . X X . X . . . |
$$ | . X X . X O X X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X . X 2 X O . X O . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O X O O . X . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . O O 3 O X X . O O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . O X O X X X X O . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X O O X O O O O X O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O X X X . . . O X O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O X X . X O . O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O X O O . O . X X . X . O . . |
$$ | . . . . 1 X O X X . . X O . . . 6 . . |
$$ | . . X , O O . O X , X . O . 4 , . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . O X X . . O . . 5 O . . . |
$$ | . . X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Elf eventually gets around to Genkichi's move.

Elf's mainline reply to Genkichi's :w52:,

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm52 Elf's mainline reply
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O X X . X X O X . . O . . O . . |
$$ | . X X O O 1 X X O O X . X . O . . . . |
$$ | . X O , O X . X O , X O . O . , X . . |
$$ | . X . O O O X O O . X . X X . X . . . |
$$ | . X X . X O X X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X . X . X O . X O . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O X O O . X . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . O O . O X X . O O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . O X O X X X X O . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X O O X O O O O X O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O X X X . . . O X O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O X X . X O . O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O X O O . O . X X . X . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O X X . . X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , O O . O X , X . O . 4 2 3 . . |
$$ | . . . X O . O X X . . O . . 5 O 6 . . |
$$ | . . X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

_________________
The Adkins Principle:

At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?

— Winona Adkins

Looking for perfection is the only way to motivate yourself.
— Ronnie O'Sullivan

"Elvis, can't we please go home?"
— One of the Jordanaires
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline Bill Spight
 Post subject: Re: Beat Elf!
Post #19 Posted: Tue Oct 15, 2019 11:04 am 
Honinbo

Posts: 9226
Liked others: 2826
Was liked: 3111
I ran across this one the other day.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm26 Black to play.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . X X O X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O O X O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Enjoy! :D

_________________
The Adkins Principle:

At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?

— Winona Adkins

Looking for perfection is the only way to motivate yourself.
— Ronnie O'Sullivan

"Elvis, can't we please go home?"
— One of the Jordanaires
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline Uberdude
 Post subject: Re: Beat Elf!
Post #20 Posted: Tue Oct 15, 2019 11:27 am 
Judan

Posts: 6240
Location: Cambridge, UK
Liked others: 356
Was liked: 3383
Rank: UK 4 dan
KGS: Uberdude 4d
OGS: Uberdude 7d
Easy if your policy network is biased for cool moves :) . There's a 3-4 joseki that has the same tesuji down one line that I tried to get people to play but they never cooperated.
Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  Page 1 of 2
  [ 23 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

Board index » Improve Your Game » Study Group

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group