Handicap game, won but would like review please

Applebaps · Post by **Applebaps** » Sat Oct 19, 2019 11:51 am

https://online-go.com/game/20004487

I had a very fun game against a stronger player this morning, and as we all know, it's harder to learn from your wins than your losses. The other person left without reviewing. Would some of you please help me learn from this match?

Thanks in advance!

jlt · Post by **jlt** » Sat Oct 19, 2019 2:14 pm

A few thoughts:

not an awful move, but a bit unusual. Responses like C6, E3 or tenuki would be more usual.

would be better at D7. Playing on the second line is useful to make life, but here you are already safe. It's better to try to access the center while threatening to separate two white groups.

is small. There are bigger points on the board.

would be better at P2. This would connect two of your groups, and make the O6 group stronger, so that you can attack M5 afterwards.

Move 100 would be better at J12. You have many friendly stones around, so your opponent can't cut. It's better to be ahead of your opponent, rather than push from behind.

Move 150: you just threaten one stone?? There are bigger moves on the board.

Move 216: what are you afraid of?

Move 224: what are you afraid of?

Uberdude · Post by **Uberdude** » Sat Oct 19, 2019 2:29 pm

Move 218: what should you be afraid of

xela · Post by **xela** » Sat Oct 19, 2019 3:54 pm

I like your comment at move 34. Good to see your sense of priorities :-)

There are two areas where I think you can improve quickly. First is your sense of good shape: at the moment you're missing a lot of basic instinct moves. Examples in your game: at move 8 you could have played Q15; move 18, D16 (although there are other good moves in this position too); move 54, P2; move 72, E17. With practice, these are the sorts of moves you'll play almost automatically. Good ways to improve your instincts are to watch games by stronger players, and to quickly go through a bunch of examples at the Neural Net Go Problems site.

Second, as hinted in the other posts, you give away a lot of points by defending when you don't need to. As a general principle, before playing a defensive move, you should ask: if I don't play here, then exactly what move will my opponent play? If you don't see how they can punish you, then you shouldn't defend! Once in a while you'll lose a game in a horrible way, but you'll learn a lot from those experiences. If you do it the other way -- being too cautious and defending every time you're not sure -- then you won't improve as quickly.

Bill Spight · Post by **Bill Spight** » Sat Oct 19, 2019 6:03 pm

Some comments on the opening.

Edit: Removed speculative variations, added one more.

Kirby · Post by **Kirby** » Sat Oct 19, 2019 6:17 pm

Without thinking much about it, and just going on feeling/intuition, the first move I felt was wrong was this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . B . . X . . X . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . X O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Interestingly, though, my intuition/feeling was wrong. I felt like playing here:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . X B . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . X O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . C . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

which is logically bad since white can have nice shape with the marked intersection. And AIs seem to think it's bad, too!

Bill Spight · Post by **Bill Spight** » Sat Oct 19, 2019 6:23 pm

Kirby wrote:which is logically bad since white can have nice shape with the marked intersection. And AIs seem to think it's bad, too!

Great networks think alike.

Bill Spight · Post by **Bill Spight** » Sat Oct 19, 2019 8:29 pm

xela wrote:Second, as hinted in the other posts, you give away a lot of points by defending when you don't need to. As a general principle, before playing a defensive move, you should ask: if I don't play here, then exactly what move will my opponent play? If you don't see how they can punish you, then you shouldn't defend! Once in a while you'll lose a game in a horrible way, but you'll learn a lot from those experiences. If you do it the other way -- being too cautious and defending every time you're not sure -- then you won't improve as quickly.

Moi wrote:Ask not what your opponent can do to you, ask what you can do to your opponent.

Applebaps · Post by **Applebaps** » Mon Oct 21, 2019 7:48 am

Thanks, all! I appreciate the tips.

Applebaps · Post by **Applebaps** » Mon Oct 21, 2019 9:33 am

jlt wrote: Move 216: what are you afraid of?

Move 224: what are you afraid of?

Your advice is spot on in general. I think these two questions in particular, though, got my attention! I went back and took a look at what, exactly, I was afraid of in these instances. I think I had good justification for these moves.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c Move 216: What I was afraid of $$|..O,. $$|OO... $$|OZO.O $$|ZZZO. $$|..ZOX $$|.aWXX $$|...X[/go]

I've lost far more territory than I like to admit over the years thanks to leaving behind formations like this and failing to read it out when my opponent cuts. My play has been conditioned by hyper-aggressive players, unfortunately, and up until very recently I haven't been able to even begin to approach punishing them.

That said, looking at it now, I can see that the marked Black stones are not dead, provided Black plays at a.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c Move 216: continuation $$|..O,. $$|OO... $$|OXO.O $$|XXXO. $$|abXOX $$|.XOXX $$|...X[/go]

My problem with this is, if White plays at a now, I don't lose my 5 stones, but I do lose 4 points of territory that should have been mine, because I have to connect at b.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c Move 216: continuation $$|..O,. $$|OO... $$|OXO.O $$|XXXO. $$|OXXOX $$|.XOXX $$|...X[/go]

So, my mindset is to connect and prevent White from having any possibility whatsoever of going this way. Black's shape here is also very ugly, and I don't like that I only have 2 liberties left after this exchange. White could keep pushing and pushing with further shenanigans, and I just didn't want to even go there.

As for 224:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c Move 224: What I was afraid of $$OZZWX $$.OZW. $$.OZ.X $$OXa.. $$XX...[/go]

Immediately preceding this, with move 223, White had just taken 4 stones and now had a cutting point (a) into my center moyo. They could have leaned on my marked stones, or tried to resurrect their marked stones. Granted, I could have played it out, I don't think they had a serious chance, but I've been wrong before. Many many times. I wanted to take away that possibility.

Applebaps · Post by **Applebaps** » Mon Oct 21, 2019 9:38 am

Bill Spight wrote:Some comments on the opening.

*snip*

Thanks for taking the time to make sgfs so I can see it concretely like that! I'll try to keep your comments and variations in mind.

Applebaps · Post by **Applebaps** » Mon Oct 21, 2019 9:41 am

Uberdude wrote:Move 218: what should you be afraid of

Obviously, in retrospect, J13 lol. Pretty sure my top group is safe, I have a miai for life there.

dfan · Post by **dfan** » Mon Oct 21, 2019 10:03 am

Applebaps wrote:
$$c Move 216: continuation
$$|..O,.
$$|OO...
$$|OXO.O
$$|XXXO.
$$|abXOX
$$|.XOXX
$$|...X
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Move 216: continuation $$|..O,. $$|OO... $$|OXO.O $$|XXXO. $$|abXOX $$|.XOXX $$|...X[/go]
My problem with this is, if White plays at a now, I don't lose my 5 stones, but I do lose 4 points of territory that should have been mine, because I have to connect at b.

Where are the 4 points of territory that you think you lost in this scenario?

jlt · Post by **jlt** » Mon Oct 21, 2019 10:11 am

Applebaps wrote:
$$c Move 216: What I was afraid of
$$|..O,.
$$|OO...
$$|OZO.O
$$|ZZZO.
$$|..ZOX
$$|.aWXX
$$|...X
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Move 216: What I was afraid of $$|..O,. $$|OO... $$|OZO.O $$|ZZZO. $$|..ZOX $$|.aWXX $$|...X[/go]
I've lost far more territory than I like to admit over the years thanks to leaving behind formations like this and failing to read it out when my opponent cuts. My play has been conditioned by hyper-aggressive players, unfortunately, and up until very recently I haven't been able to even begin to approach punishing them.

That said, looking at it now, I can see that the marked Black stones are not dead, provided Black plays at a.

$$c Move 216: continuation
$$|..O,.
$$|OO...
$$|OXO.O
$$|XXXO.
$$|abXOX
$$|.XOXX
$$|...X
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Move 216: continuation $$|..O,. $$|OO... $$|OXO.O $$|XXXO. $$|abXOX $$|.XOXX $$|...X[/go]
My problem with this is, if White plays at a now, I don't lose my 5 stones, but I do lose 4 points of territory that should have been mine, because I have to connect at b.

You don't lose 4 points of territory. You play twice in your territory, which loses 2 points, but the two white stones are prisoners, so you gain 2 points. Overall you gain nothing and lose nothing.

That said, I think that capturing instead of playing at b is better:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c Move 216: continuation $$|..O,. $$|OO... $$|OXO.O $$|XXXO. $$|O.XOX $$|.X.XX $$|..XX[/go]

As for 224:

$$c Move 224: What I was afraid of
$$OZZWX
$$.OZW.
$$.OZbX
$$OXa..
$$XX...
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Move 224: What I was afraid of $$OZZWX $$.OZW. $$.OZbX $$OXa.. $$XX...[/go]
Immediately preceding this, with move 223, White had just taken 4 stones and now had a cutting point (a) into my center moyo. They could have leaned on my marked stones, or tried to resurrect their marked stones. Granted, I could have played it out, I don't think they had a serious chance, but I've been wrong before. Many many times. I wanted to take away that possibility.

There is nothing to be afraid of IMO. Points a and b are miai (if White plays a you can play b and vice-versa). You have many black stones around which are almost all connected, White can neither kill your stones nor make a living group inside your territory.

Applebaps · Post by **Applebaps** » Mon Oct 21, 2019 10:34 am

Oh hey, you're right, capturing is way better.

It seems I need to start swinging the pendulum of play back towards more confidence. I'm at an extreme of defense right now but that's too slow.

I keep forgetting that prisoners count, too, haha. The more they push, the more they stand to lose.

Life In 19x19

Handicap game, won but would like review please

Handicap game, won but would like review please

Re: Handicap game, won but would like review please

Re: Handicap game, won but would like review please

Re: Handicap game, won but would like review please

Re: Handicap game, won but would like review please

Re: Handicap game, won but would like review please

Re: Handicap game, won but would like review please

Re: Handicap game, won but would like review please

Re: Handicap game, won but would like review please

Re: Handicap game, won but would like review please

Re: Handicap game, won but would like review please

Re: Handicap game, won but would like review please

Re: Handicap game, won but would like review please

Re: Handicap game, won but would like review please

Re: Handicap game, won but would like review please