It is currently Sun Nov 10, 2024 12:46 pm

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 15 posts ] 
Author Message
Offline
 Post subject: Would you be able to play an entire game in your head?
Post #1 Posted: Tue Nov 12, 2019 9:24 pm 
Dies with sente

Posts: 121
Liked others: 0
Was liked: 27
Either by yourself or with an opponent, would you be able to play a fresh game entirely in your head? Would anyone be able to do this in real life like Touya Akira?

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Would you be able to play an entire game in your head?
Post #2 Posted: Tue Nov 12, 2019 10:15 pm 
Lives with ko

Posts: 131
Liked others: 1
Was liked: 18
Rank: AGA 4 dan
Universal go server handle: telegraphgo
I think I could play an even game against most humans 2-9 stones weaker than me "blindfold" through the almost all the middlegame, but probably not the endgame. If they were stronger than that, I'd probably want to resign by move 50, and if they were weaker, I'd probably have trouble reminding myself of the 'story' or 'flow' of the game. I'd have to convince myself of a move to memorize it.

I'd expect most professionals to be able to play a fully visualized game against most amateurs > 5kyu. Yeah, there's people who can do it.

It's an interesting concept though. I want to try it, so I hereby challenge any reader 5kyu and up to a blind Malkovitch! Either just me blindfolded, or both players blindfolded. Any player who is blindfolded would give moves in text (ex. D4) and give their reasoning in terms of shapes. They would be allowed to reread the text moves but not to play any part of the game out on a board until the game ends. If my opponent plays without a blindfold, then they can give their move in text and draw diagrams in the hidden. If a blindfolded player has reached endgame and feels that one side is clearly ahead they may ask to end the game, pending on audience approval.
I think it would be kind of interesting for readers, although perhaps a little harder to follow than the normal Malkovitch. Does anyone feel up to it? Would anyone be interesting in reading such an endeavor?

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Would you be able to play an entire game in your head?
Post #3 Posted: Wed Nov 13, 2019 7:41 am 
Dies in gote
User avatar

Posts: 28
Liked others: 24
Was liked: 21
Universal go server handle: kj01a
No.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Would you be able to play an entire game in your head?
Post #4 Posted: Wed Nov 13, 2019 8:57 am 
Tengen

Posts: 4382
Location: Caldas da Rainha, Portugal
Liked others: 499
Was liked: 733
Rank: AGA 3k
GD Posts: 65
OGS: Hyperpape 4k
Bao Yun can play blindfold go through the endgame, and I seem to recall he can play at a pretty high level while blindfolded. https://senseis.xmp.net/?BaoYun

A few times when I've been thinking deeply about a correspondance game, I have played through moves in my head. I found that I could visualize the position for at least 40 moves after not having looked at the game all day. I never quite measured how far I could go, but I suspect I'd break down during the middlegame.

_________________
Occupy Babel!

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Would you be able to play an entire game in your head?
Post #5 Posted: Wed Nov 13, 2019 12:36 pm 
Gosei

Posts: 1628
Liked others: 546
Was liked: 450
Rank: senior player
GD Posts: 1000
I'm sure most pro go players could play whole games blindfolded. In chess, the master George Koltanowski played 37 simpultaneous games blindfolded in 19307, I think.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Would you be able to play an entire game in your head?
Post #6 Posted: Wed Nov 13, 2019 1:01 pm 
Gosei
User avatar

Posts: 1769
Liked others: 180
Was liked: 492
https://senseis.xmp.net/?BaoYun says that "[Bao Yun is] the only person in the world able to play and finish a blind-go on 19x19".

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Would you be able to play an entire game in your head?
Post #7 Posted: Wed Nov 13, 2019 2:01 pm 
Lives with ko
User avatar

Posts: 205
Liked others: 49
Was liked: 36
Rank: EGF 2k
KGS: MKyle
TelegraphGo wrote:
I think I could play an even game against most humans 2-9 stones weaker than me "blindfold" through the almost all the middlegame, but probably not the endgame. If they were stronger than that, I'd probably want to resign by move 50, and if they were weaker, I'd probably have trouble reminding myself of the 'story' or 'flow' of the game. I'd have to convince myself of a move to memorize it.

I'd expect most professionals to be able to play a fully visualized game against most amateurs > 5kyu. Yeah, there's people who can do it.

It's an interesting concept though. I want to try it, so I hereby challenge any reader 5kyu and up to a blind Malkovitch! Either just me blindfolded, or both players blindfolded. Any player who is blindfolded would give moves in text (ex. D4) and give their reasoning in terms of shapes. They would be allowed to reread the text moves but not to play any part of the game out on a board until the game ends. If my opponent plays without a blindfold, then they can give their move in text and draw diagrams in the hidden. If a blindfolded player has reached endgame and feels that one side is clearly ahead they may ask to end the game, pending on audience approval.
I think it would be kind of interesting for readers, although perhaps a little harder to follow than the normal Malkovitch. Does anyone feel up to it? Would anyone be interesting in reading such an endeavor?


I would be very interested to give this a try. My only concern is the time commitment, there will likely be times over the next few weeks where I don't feel like I can manage to play a move for a while.
Incidentally I feel like a true blindfold game would not allow players to reread the moves

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Would you be able to play an entire game in your head?
Post #8 Posted: Wed Nov 13, 2019 3:05 pm 
Lives with ko

Posts: 131
Liked others: 1
Was liked: 18
Rank: AGA 4 dan
Universal go server handle: telegraphgo
MikeKyle wrote:

I would be very interested to give this a try. My only concern is the time commitment, there will likely be times over the next few weeks where I don't feel like I can manage to play a move for a while.
Incidentally I feel like a true blindfold game would not allow players to reread the moves


Let's do it! Agreed on the rereading - but memorization for an hour or two is quite different from long-term memorization. I'll make a note of it whenever I need to go back and check something, and I'll try to keep it to a minimum.

Poor planning on my part, but I'm not really sure how or where to start a weirdo Malkovitch game :oops:
If anyone can point us in the right direction, please PM me or post in this thread. :tmbup:

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Would you be able to play an entire game in your head?
Post #9 Posted: Thu Nov 14, 2019 6:51 am 
Gosei

Posts: 1628
Liked others: 546
Was liked: 450
Rank: senior player
GD Posts: 1000
jlt wrote:
https://senseis.xmp.net/?BaoYun says that "[Bao Yun is] the only person in the world able to play and finish a blind-go on 19x19".


This is a statement by Bao Yun, apparently self-promoting.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Would you be able to play an entire game in your head?
Post #10 Posted: Thu Nov 14, 2019 7:33 am 
Tengen

Posts: 4382
Location: Caldas da Rainha, Portugal
Liked others: 499
Was liked: 733
Rank: AGA 3k
GD Posts: 65
OGS: Hyperpape 4k
Self-promoting, but accurate at the time, and I haven't heard of any updates that change the situation.

Note the link to GoGoD: John wrote about how Bao Yun had significantly exceeded other players' marks, and played a complete game, whereas all the previous professional attempts had ended substantially earlier.

In any case, the bottom line is that blindfolded go seems to be vastly more difficult than blindfolded chess, where grandmasters can play multiple simultaneous blindfolded games.

_________________
Occupy Babel!

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Would you be able to play an entire game in your head?
Post #11 Posted: Thu Nov 14, 2019 9:48 am 
Lives with ko

Posts: 218
Liked others: 23
Was liked: 14
Rank: IGS 3k
KGS: Bki
IGS: mlbki
hyperpape wrote:
Self-promoting, but accurate at the time, and I haven't heard of any updates that change the situation.

Note the link to GoGoD: John wrote about how Bao Yun had significantly exceeded other players' marks, and played a complete game, whereas all the previous professional attempts had ended substantially earlier.

In any case, the bottom line is that blindfolded go seems to be vastly more difficult than blindfolded chess, where grandmasters can play multiple simultaneous blindfolded games.


It's because a chess game become easier to visualize at the end since you only have to keep in mind the position of 10 pieces or less. Meanwhile for go you have to keep in mind the position of all the ~200 stones already played, except maybe for some areas that are completely settled (without even a ko threat).

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Would you be able to play an entire game in your head?
Post #12 Posted: Thu Nov 14, 2019 10:21 am 
Lives in sente

Posts: 758
Liked others: 114
Was liked: 916
Rank: maybe 2d
Imagine trying to read out a ladder (supposing that the contents of the opposite corner are nontrivial). Eek.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Would you be able to play an entire game in your head?
Post #13 Posted: Thu Nov 14, 2019 10:47 am 
Lives in gote

Posts: 532
Liked others: 1
Was liked: 136
Rank: 13k
negapesuo wrote:
Either by yourself or with an opponent, would you be able to play a fresh game entirely in your head? Would anyone be able to do this in real life like Touya Akira?


Me? Good lord, no. For one thing, that would require each of us calling out our moves by coordinates. Disaster Number One right there. Disaster Number Two is being able to hold the stones in a visual memory. Shoot, when playing with friends, I can only rewind a position about ten or eleven moves.

There was a book I read decades ago, might have been Master of Go or Appreciating Famous Games, where the author tells a story from his days as insei, living with his teacher. He and his fellow students are bedding down in sensei’s dormitory and they replay famous games from memory. They discuss the merits of moves and numerous variations based on the styles of the professional players. So they are visualizing complete games, going off on variation trees and sub-branches of the trees, and then going back to the starting position to continue playing. From memory. In their heads. In the dark.

_________________
David Bogie, Boise ID
I play go, I ride a recumbent, of course I use Macintosh.


This post by bogiesan was liked by: Applebaps
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Would you be able to play an entire game in your head?
Post #14 Posted: Thu Nov 14, 2019 11:39 am 
Dies in gote
User avatar

Posts: 64
Liked others: 129
Was liked: 27
Rank: DDK Life
Universal go server handle: Applebaps
Online playing schedule: Evenings M-F UTC-9, Saturday mornings
My first reaction was "wow no, absolutely not." But as I thought about it some more, you know what, I could probably do the opening at least. I know enough common sequences now, and enough of the reasons behind why you do things in the opening, that I could prooooobably hold about... hm, idk. 20 moves? in my head?

Given that, it's not inconceivable that top pros could do entire games. It's gotta be super tough, though.

_________________
Joseki (n): 1. Japanese term meaning "when Jo lives in seki."

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Would you be able to play an entire game in your head?
Post #15 Posted: Thu Nov 14, 2019 3:53 pm 
Lives with ko

Posts: 218
Liked others: 23
Was liked: 14
Rank: IGS 3k
KGS: Bki
IGS: mlbki
bogiesan wrote:
negapesuo wrote:
Either by yourself or with an opponent, would you be able to play a fresh game entirely in your head? Would anyone be able to do this in real life like Touya Akira?


Me? Good lord, no. For one thing, that would require each of us calling out our moves by coordinates. Disaster Number One right there. Disaster Number Two is being able to hold the stones in a visual memory. Shoot, when playing with friends, I can only rewind a position about ten or eleven moves.

There was a book I read decades ago, might have been Master of Go or Appreciating Famous Games, where the author tells a story from his days as insei, living with his teacher. He and his fellow students are bedding down in sensei’s dormitory and they replay famous games from memory. They discuss the merits of moves and numerous variations based on the styles of the professional players. So they are visualizing complete games, going off on variation trees and sub-branches of the trees, and then going back to the starting position to continue playing. From memory. In their heads. In the dark.


It's a bit different here because it's from games they have memorized. I've tried a couple times, and it's not actually that difficult to be able to play over a good part of a pro game in your mind (playing over the entire game including endgame is trickier, especially with a serious ko fight, but it's more that it's time consuming to memorize it). Of course, being able to conjure a specific position rather than starting all over from the beginning of the game would be a lot harder (which I suppose this is what they were doing).

Also being in the dark might make thing easier since you have less distractions.

Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 15 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group