Knotwilg's practice

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Re: Knotwilg's practice

Post by Bill Spight »

Top left play.

My bad. This position is a White sente. :)
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W White sente
$$ -----------------------
$$ | . C 4 . 1 . 3 C . . .
$$ | . C C X 2 O B O . . .
$$ | . . X O O O B O O O O
$$ | . . X X O X O O X O X
$$ | . . . X X X X X X O X
$$ | . . O O O X . . O X X
$$ | . . . . X O X X O X O
$$ | . O . X . O O O O X .
$$ | . X . X O . . . . . O
$$ | . X . X . . . . O . O[/go]
Local result: -2.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W White's threat
$$ -----------------------
$$ | . 6 5 7 1 C C C . . .
$$ | . 4 3 B C O B O . . .
$$ | . . X O O O B O O O O
$$ | . . X X O X O O X O X
$$ | . . . X X X X X X O X
$$ | . . O O O X . . O X X
$$ | . . . . X O X X O X O
$$ | . O . X . O O O O X .
$$ | . X . X O . . . . . O
$$ | . X . X . . . . O . O[/go]
Local result: -10. White gains 8 pts. in 2 net plays.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Black reverse sente
$$ -----------------------
$$ | . C C C 1 . 2 C . . .
$$ | . C . X 3 O B O . . .
$$ | . . X O O O B O O O O
$$ | . . X X O X O O X O X
$$ | . . . X X X X X X O X
$$ | . . O O O X . . O X X
$$ | . . . . X O X X O X O
$$ | . O . X . O O O O X .
$$ | . X . X O . . . . . O
$$ | . X . X . . . . O . O[/go]
Local result: -1.

The reverse sente gains 1 pt.

----

Edit: Alternate White sente.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W White sente
$$ -----------------------
$$ | . C C . 2 . 3 C . . .
$$ | . C 4 X 1 O B O . . .
$$ | . . X O O O B O O O O
$$ | . . X X O X O O X O X
$$ | . . . X X X X X X O X
$$ | . . O O O X . . O X X
$$ | . . . . X O X X O X O
$$ | . O . X . O O O O X .
$$ | . X . X O . . . . . O
$$ | . X . X . . . . O . O[/go]
Local result: -2.

This way is not as good for White in terms of ko threats.
Last edited by Bill Spight on Sat May 11, 2019 2:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Knotwilg's practice

Post by Knotwilg »

Thanks Bill!

I saw it as a 1 reverse sente for Black indeed.

With the bad aji Black has in that corner, he'd probably best leave that position alone and for example first secure his second eye, which is also a White sente I believe (1 point threatening 4 more).

So not urgent, on the contrary. Correct?
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Re: Knotwilg's practice

Post by Bill Spight »

Knotwilg wrote:Thanks Bill!

I saw it as a 1 reverse sente for Black indeed.

With the bad aji Black has in that corner, he'd probably best leave that position alone and for example first secure his second eye, which is also a White sente I believe (1 point threatening 4 more).

So not urgent, on the contrary. Correct?
Considering the aji I am not at all sure that those plays are independent. If not, then the calculations are all wrong and the urgency is high. Which is how the humans played it. However, top bots are sensitive to aji and LZ plays them as though they were independent. {shrug}
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Re: Knotwilg's practice

Post by Knotwilg »

Analyzing a fairly easy win. What did I think during the game? What does LZ think?

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Re: Knotwilg's practice

Post by Knotwilg »

I analyzed three recent games of mine (KGS 1d level) with Lizzie (LZ/Kata) to find my biggest mistakes and learn from them.

- take the big point
- surround
- take the shape point (4)
- attack to make profit instead of loosely surrounding without profit
- play the double sente / look out for killing moves
- play away from strength to attack strongly
- don't fall for the trick play (don't think: what are you doing, stupid opponent!)
- don't invite your opponent to make good shape
- play the tesuji to capture one of either groups

Shape gets particular attention.
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Re: Knotwilg's practice

Post by Knotwilg »

I learnt about this particular shape, not only in this game, but through multiple AI game reviews.

I hope I will unlearn the move that forces my opponent into good shape and learn the move(s) that turn him into bad shape.

https://senseis.xmp.net/?ShapeProblem7%2FSolution

Please review for errors.
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Re: Knotwilg's practice

Post by Bill Spight »

Nice trap. :)

But the last two diagrams don't make sense.

Also:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Easy life
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . X . . . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O b O X X . . . . X . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | C O O O X . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | 1 B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
It may not be best play, but :w1: makes easy life. :)

Also, I am unsure about eliminating the White cut at a. And in some variations, White loses a play and a dame by filling at b.
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Re: Knotwilg's practice

Post by xela »

Bill Spight wrote:...the last two diagrams don't make sense...
I've just edited the last diagram -- I think the move numbers were in the wrong order -- is it any better now? I didn't have any issues with the penultimate diagram myself.
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Re: Knotwilg's practice

Post by Bill Spight »

xela wrote:
Bill Spight wrote:...the last two diagrams don't make sense...
I've just edited the last diagram -- I think the move numbers were in the wrong order -- is it any better now? I didn't have any issues with the penultimate diagram myself.
The penultimate diagram doesn't make go sense to me.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Wrong: forcing Black into good shape
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . X . . . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X O 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X O X . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 4 O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O 5 O X X . . . . X . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . O O O X . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | 8 X . 7 3 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


:w1: - :b2: is a given. But :b4:? Really? Surely it should be at 6. Certainly. :w5: is bad. I think something like this may have been intended.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Wrong: forcing Black into good shape
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . X . . . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X O 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X O X . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 6 O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O 7 O X X . . . . X . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . O O O X . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | 8 X . 5 3 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------------------------------[/go]
But if so, :w7: could be at 8, for easy life. So:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Wrong: forcing Black into good shape
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . X . . . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X O 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X O X . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O . O X X . . . . X . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . O O O X . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | 6 X . 5 3 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------------------------------[/go]
This makes more sense to me. :) OC, :w5: could still be at 6.
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Re: Knotwilg's practice

Post by Knotwilg »

I've been playing many online games since the Corona crisis started, mostly on KGS.

What I try is:

- apply Dwyrin's "basic" style
- which includes avoiding fights unless the opponent is doing something unreasonable ("kills himself" in Dwyrin's words)
- instead play the big points and keep a mental model of where they are
- always think of 3 alternatives
- use my time (and the opponent's)

What most often happens:

- I get into a whole board fight, with unclear outcome
- I play intuitively and fast

Keeping the discipline to "stay calm and think" is not easy.
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Re: Knotwilg's practice

Post by SoDesuNe »

I also try to focus on playing with good shape and get a feeling for the correct timing of "active" moves. My role-model is Shuei, though :p

So far I'm okay-ish successful but I also don't really confront my weakness of playing 50%-moves. I'm often content with simply defending and then count on my opponent's mistakes to make up for my slow play.

I really should learn to make the game broader and more complex.

We should play sometime on KGS : )
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Re: Knotwilg's practice

Post by xela »

Panic and chaos seem to be the norm these days. Glad you're managing to channel these things into your go game!
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Re: Knotwilg's practice

Post by Knotwilg »

I'm being fairly successful with applying aforementioned heuristics:

- corners first
- big points on biggest sides
- enclosure/extend
- reduce sides to build center
- avoid complex joseki
- make shape
- don't go all out fighting
- A, B, C
- see sequences
- use time

On KGS I have a winning streak of 7 games as a 1d. I'd like to get back to 2d and when this damn crisis takes the full year, I'd like to take advantage of it to reach a long abandoned goal of becoming 3d.

That's the rank objective. The question is: (how) can a life long 1-2 dan make that leap at 48 years of age?

Any advice on how to go about it? Does my condition make a difference?

Doing the same things I've done before is probably not a good approach. One thing I've always neglected is studying joseki and openings altogether.
Another idea is: if I have a hard time avoiding fights, perhaps I should accept my nature and become better at fighting?
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Re: Knotwilg's practice

Post by SoDesuNe »

Knotwilg wrote:Doing the same things I've done before is probably not a good approach. One thing I've always neglected is studying joseki and openings altogether.
Another idea is: if I have a hard time avoiding fights, perhaps I should accept my nature and become better at fighting?
Given that go, since 2016, changed a lot in regards to opening strategy and josekis you can either take away that now is the best time to play catch-up or that it was never an important point to focus on (at least at amateur dan rank below - arbitrarily - 5-dan or so).

My money is on it was never important for our rank - and I did grind a lot of opening problems a while back (get strong and the mastering-series) - did not make me even (solid) Shodan.

I'm a broken record about this and I know you even opened a thread about this topic, but my take is and has always been: Tsumego, tsumego, tesuji and some more tsumego problems to get stronger ; ) This is also by no means a shortcut: As Baduk docter in his series to become a dan-player points out, you have to solve problems regularly and thoroughly (ie really reading out lines to the end). It also has nothing to do with age but with time spent. If you can do two hours a day effortful tsumego practice and play a serious game than you will get stronger. Add reviewing and instructions and it will become even faster.

Important: The time-frame is still months for progress and not days or even weeks.

I also read an insei report from Antti (I couldn't find this post anymore, so maybe it was some other report on senseis, Benjamin Teuber?, or the other parts of the internet) that he was often ahead in the opening because the other inseis had a way worse understanding of this stage then he had. But their reading was far stronger and so they often catched up.

So, yes, I think embracing the fight (when necessary) is good, at least to build up confidence and experience.
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Re: Knotwilg's practice

Post by jlt »

Knotwilg wrote:(how) can a life long 1-2 dan make that leap at 48 years of age?

Any advice on how to go about it? Does my condition make a difference?
Obviously I don't know how to become a strong go player, but here are some thoughts:
  • Unless you suffer from senile dementia, you can learn at any age, maybe more slowly than teenagers but learning is not at all impossible. I know people in their fifties who resumed studying at university, and who were as successful as young students.
  • What is harder is to overcome bad habits that have been ingrained for many years.
  • 1-2 years ago, Tami (a member of this forum who also was in her late forties) said she managed to improve from IGS 1k to 1d. Besides studying, one of the things she did was to change her playing style. I don't know if this method works to improve from 2d to 3d but it may be worth a try.
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