KataIgo 3-4 low approach, two space high pincer

Gomoto · Post by **Gomoto** » Sat Dec 07, 2019 8:18 pm

What is the fuzz all about?

KataGo has a strong opinion about this opening. With the marked move white takes the lead with about 3 points early in the opening.

The fighting possibilities are manifold, but white has good perspectives in the battles that will follow.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . W , . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Gomoto · Post by **Gomoto** » Sun Dec 08, 2019 2:43 am

Some 3-4 low approach, two space high pincer induced fighting sequences:

(analyzed with this interesting KataGo network: https://blog.janestreet.com/deep-learni ... the-world/)

Gomoto · Post by **Gomoto** » Sun Dec 08, 2019 3:11 am

And for illustration a pro game with this kind of fighting in a slightly different opening:

lightvector · Post by **lightvector** » Sun Dec 08, 2019 3:26 am

So, note that the new network was tested by some people in LZ discord and confirmed to be a bit weaker on normal games, as probably expected. The neural net has only limited capacity, presumably some of that capacity was devoted to understanding igoh120 and lost for being useful in normal games.

You can of course still use it if you want a "second opinion" - probably it will differ relative to the normal 20 block net in some opinion just randomly because it's a different net. New stronger net from fresh should be out within a month though.

gennan · Post by **gennan** » Sun Dec 08, 2019 3:27 am

A while ago, I made a video about that pincer and the shoulder hit counter (using the AlphaGo Master teaching tool and Leele Zero): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Rx0mQ7ttks&t=574. That is a different position, so the continuations also differ.

Gomoto · Post by **Gomoto** » Sun Dec 08, 2019 3:43 am

lightvector, thank you for the heads up. I have already a lot of fun analyzing with this one

emerus · Post by **emerus** » Mon Dec 09, 2019 1:00 am

You might also want to explore this move. Some weights judge the final positions more favorably than the hane and connect variation(s). If not on a "plain" position, then at least it is considered in other somewhat usual positions.

Gomoto · Post by **Gomoto** » Mon Dec 09, 2019 7:28 am

Emerus, thanks for the variation. The bots have difficulties to evaluate this interesting position (big score swings between moves). And they seem to have a bit of a blindspot for the best answer from time to time (They recognize it if you present it to them). Perhaps this is a nice test case for the networks.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . O X . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . O X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

White to play. What is your next move? (Do you find the best answer? Or an even better one

)

Gomoto · Post by **Gomoto** » Tue Dec 10, 2019 4:40 pm

reaping the fruit

Gomoto · Post by **Gomoto** » Tue Dec 10, 2019 4:48 pm

A little bit of study and my emotional state when I am on the receiving end of the two space high pincer has flipped its polarization.

pincer me, pincer me, pincer me!

Life In 19x19

KataIgo 3-4 low approach, two space high pincer

KataIgo 3-4 low approach, two space high pincer

Re: KataIgo 3-4 low approach, two space high pincer

Re: KataIgo 3-4 low approach, two space high pincer

Re: KataIgo 3-4 low approach, two space high pincer

Re: KataIgo 3-4 low approach, two space high pincer

Re: KataIgo 3-4 low approach, two space high pincer

Re: KataIgo 3-4 low approach, two space high pincer

Re: KataIgo 3-4 low approach, two space high pincer

Re: KataIgo 3-4 low approach, two space high pincer

Re: KataIgo 3-4 low approach, two space high pincer