Lee Sedol retires from the KBA

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Re: Lee Sedol retires from the KBA

Post by John Fairbairn »

I generally agree with the sentiment that, all other things being equal, it can get tougher to win regularly as you get older. That being said, Lee Changho still seems to have some gumption - he just won some international tournament (the Baoshan International Go Masters?? --> https://sports.v.daum.net/v/20191226232454811). Granted, it's not like it's a big, widely known tournament, but at least it tells me that Lee Changho's career isn't totally over, yet.
This is precisely the Yongzi Cup I referred to (played at the Yongzi Qiyuan in Baoshan). Just four wonderful players, but all yesterday's men, and there by invitation rather than current grading.

Nice to see you using a good Scots word, but I don't see what gumption has to do with Yi Ch'ang-ho's victory. I've noticed it being misused before and I've wondered if it's being confused with Japanese ganbatte. Gumption is basically our Scots word for common sense, though sometimes larded with a connotation of resourcefulness - or get-up-and-go! (Geddit?)
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Re: Lee Sedol retires from the KBA

Post by Kirby »

Gumption was the word I came up with, but maybe I'm misusing it. My vocabulary probably isn't as good as yours. Google dictionary says "shrewd or spirited initiative and resourcefulness".

What I meant to convey was that I think Lee Changho still has some energy behind his play, if he's still winning some tournaments.

I don't think Lee Changho will be the next world champion or anything - this was mainly in response to the suggestion that he's been "squeezed out of tournaments almost completely". This is just a recent example of a tournament that he played in - contestants being "yesterday's men" or not. Senior tournament? Still a tournament. Saying someone's squeezed out of tournaments almost completely could be misleading.
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Re: Lee Sedol retires from the KBA

Post by hyperpape »

As a speaker of (Southern) American English, "gumption" is a folksy way of saying something like grit, determination, intrepidness to me. Perhaps it has a hint of stubbornness or even recklessness. Sounds like we got the secondary connotation and lost the primary meaning in the US. I wouldn't have thought to use it for describing a win in a go tournament, but I got Kirby's intent.
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Re: Lee Sedol retires from the KBA

Post by sorin »

Kirby wrote:I saw an interview with Lee Sedol where they chat a bit about his retirement.
Not sure if you are referring to this one, with English subtitles: http://kshow123.net/show/because-i-want ... ode-3.html - I think I found it linked somewhere on OGS. It is quite long, over one hour (it seems to be a TV talk-show).
He links a bit his retirement reasons to AI being so strong, in the beginning of the show.

I didn't have the patience to watch it all, but I did find some very interesting bits around the middle, when they bring a go board and Lee Sedol is talking about the famous AlphaGo invasion on the 3rd line, in game 1, and about his "miracle move 78" that won him game 4.

About the game 1 invasion, he said he knew that the beginning of the game was bad for him, but after what he thought are slack moves of AlphaGo, he thought he is on the way of catching up. But the invasion was a rude awakening, at which point he immediately understood he lost the game, and that's when he also realized how strong AlphaGo really is.

About game 4, he said he decided the play as patiently as possible, totally against his usual style. And he acknowledged that move 78 wasn't supposed to work, and even after AlphaGo's mistake he still didn't have confidence he is winning until several moves passed, since he was still afraid AlphaGo is plotting something.

Another interesting bit: he said he regrets now not listening to those who told him that AlphaGo is very strong (he doesn't give names, but I guess the only possibility is that he's referring to DeepMind people) and his mindset was too complacent going into the match.
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Re: Lee Sedol retires from the KBA

Post by Kirby »

Hey, Sorin...
Thanks for the interview link - I saw it on Facebook, but haven’t seen that one, yet. I was referring to this interview: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QiOEQ4xQSO8

I suppose Lee may be giving a lot of interviews these days. The one you linked may be more popular due to the interviewer - he’s a semi-popular actor in Korea.

Regarding not listening to others about AlphaGo’s strength, we at least know that Hajin kind of warned him that he might lose while she was having correspondence with him to set up the match. I think she mentioned this somewhere in English- maybe on her Haylee stream or something, IIRC..

Though, I suppose she might be considered one of the “DeepMind people”...
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Re: Lee Sedol retires from the KBA

Post by Bonobo »

Off-Topic re: Re: “gumption”
Interesting. I’m not a native speaker, and when I visited https://www.dict.cc/?s=gumption, I immediately understood Kirby’s as “guts”, “chutzpah”.

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/gumption
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/gumption wrote:1. (Britain) Common sense, initiative, resourcefulness. [from early 18th c.]
Synonym: gumph
2. (US) Boldness of enterprise; aggressiveness or initiative.
Synonyms: chutzpah, gumph, guts, spunk
3. (US) Energy of body and mind, enthusiasm.
Synonym: gumph
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Re: Lee Sedol retires from the KBA

Post by xela »

OK, let's keep hiding the off-topic gumptiony bits:
Very interesting. As a native speaker of northwest English English, not Scottish English, my understanding of gumption is closer to number 2 in that list.
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Re: Lee Sedol retires from the KBA

Post by Bill Spight »

hyperpape wrote:As a speaker of (Southern) American English, "gumption" is a folksy way of saying something like grit, determination, intrepidness to me. Perhaps it has a hint of stubbornness or even recklessness. Sounds like we got the secondary connotation and lost the primary meaning in the US. I wouldn't have thought to use it for describing a win in a go tournament, but I got Kirby's intent.
I am also from the American South, and in our dialect I think that gumption also implies initiative and staying power. I have never heard any Southerner use gumption to mean common sense. I suppose that the word came to America via Scotch-Irish immigration, or invasion, as some people like to say these days. ;) A lot of Scotch-Irish move west, to Appalachia and what is now called the South.
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Re: Lee Sedol retires from the KBA

Post by John Fairbairn »

I am also from the American South, and in our dialect I think that gumption also implies initiative and staying power. I have never heard any Southerner use gumption to mean common sense. I suppose that the word came to America via Scotch-Irish immigration, or invasion, as some people like to say these days. ;) A lot of Scotch-Irish move west, to Appalachia and what is now called the South.
Gumption is certainly a Scots word, though via Old Norse rather than Gaelic, and it has migrated southwards. It is believed to be connected with goam (an old Scots word also from Norse = to pay heed; and gumption was sometimes spelled gumsheon and various other pee-less forms) which has also given rise to "gormless" and, indeed, when I was little, gormless was always used instead of the derived but uncommon form of gumption, i.e. gumptionless. Gormless (lack of native wit) was much worse than stupid (lack of education).

I suspect "common sense" mean something different to a rationalist/logician than it does to humbler folk, so you may understand it better as "native wit." Maybe "horse sense" captures it for an American, but I am on treacherous ground there.

Typical, daily uses when I was little were things like:

"You haven't got the gumption you were born with."

"You need to show a bit more gumption."

"Haven't you got any more gumption than that?"

"He's got nae gumption."

The earliest example I know in literature (early 18th century) is from the great poet Allan Ramsay: "Tis sma Presumption To say they're but unlearned Clarks, And want the Gumption." Note the proper pronunciation of clerk :) Somebody should have told Mr Webster.

In other words, rather than an attribute such as resourcefulness acquired by training or superior intellect, it was/is something given by Nature to everyone. A man's a man for a' that. Rank is but the guinea's stamp. Etc. etc.

Gormless people choose not to use Nature's gift. But those who choose to refine their native wit can be very approvingly said to be using their gumption. And that is often linked with self confidence or "can do" attitude, though not necessarily approvingly. There was therefore once a form gumptious, but that has now been replaced by bumptious.

Let me make an admittedly bumptious attempt to bring this back on topic. Whenever there is a discussion about word meanings, there is almost always some patronising comment eventually about language evolving, and implied references to dinosaurs. It's not just language, of course, it occurs in almost every aspect of life. I was watching the Ken Burns (the GREAT Ken Burns!) documentary on Country Music over the holidays. There was someone there talking about how country music was evolving into countrypolitan. That was a new term to me, and if it hasn't stuck I suppose that shows that not all evolutionary paths lead somewhere. But the speaker was mainly making the point that some people feared not change but change that was too much or too fast, to the extent that country music was being "obliterated."

Good word. I had a vivid example of the phenomenon myself not long. I went in a London Apple shop not long ago. A personable young man approached, asking if he could help me. I could tell from his accent that he was from my home town. I therefore chose to address in a friendly manner, by using dialect. He just gaped, and then said: "You talk just like my grannie..... And I can't understand her either."

Thanks to the BBC (and Hollywood), language has "evolved" to the extent that in just two generations a young man can't communicate with his grandmother. I find that sad. That's a form of obliteration. (It's worldwide, of course. I read a lot about dialects. My main Christmas present was a tome on German dialects, which I sense are on the endangered species list.)

Too much change, too fast? Revolution instead of evolution? I do wonder whether Yi Se-tol had that feeling, too. He's at an age where you start to think about anchor points in your own life, and watching lemmings rush over the cliff edge is not really much fun when you have children of your own and you want to avoid letting them become lemmings. Not a hope, of course ...
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Re: Lee Sedol retires from the KBA

Post by luigi »

"You don't have the Go-mption to beat me in an even game."
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Re: Lee Sedol retires from the KBA

Post by jlt »

As a non-native English speaker, what I like with John Fairbairn's messages is that I keep learning new words.
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Re: Lee Sedol retires from the KBA

Post by xela »

jlt wrote:As a non-native English speaker, what I like with John Fairbairn's messages is that I keep learning new words.
As a native English speaker, one of the many things I like about John's posts is that I keep learning old words!

("Gormless" was often used at my high school, but we had no idea of the connection with gumption, and often wondered exactly what "gorm" was.)
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Re: Lee Sedol retires from the KBA

Post by John Fairbairn »

As a native English speaker, one of the many things I like about John's posts is that I keep learning old words!

("Gormless" was often used at my high school, but we had no idea of the connection with gumption, and often wondered exactly what "gorm" was.)
I happened to be reading about Yorkshire dialect last night. I can usually understand it, because it is highly influenced by Old Northumbrian, which forms a basis of the Scots language and much of the dialects of northern England.

The book had a section on gormless:
When somebody in Yorkshire has behaved stupidly you might hear them described as "gormless." The correct spelling is actually gaumless, because it eans they are short of gaum or common sense. This is derived from the Old Norse word 'gaumr' which could also refer to paying attention or heed. So we also have the phrase: Tak' no gaum on 'im (Don't take any notice of him!).
They also have the simile (new to me) as gaumless as a gooise nicked i' t' 'eead (I.e. a goose with brain damage - seems like a good way to describe people who play certain kinds of bad moves?
[obligatory on-topic go connection]
As a full example of Yorkshire dialect - one that was clear enough to me - the book gives: As at ivver 'ugged pooaks up a stee till thi rigg warked? Have you ever carried sacks up a ladder till your back ached?

Obscure as it may look, you can see the connections with ordinary English if you try hard enough. Stee = ladder, but you will probably know the word stile. 'ugged is lugged, though I would have said humped. Rigg is a ridge (i.e. spine), as in the famous Burn's poem/song Ower the lea rig, in the same way that brig is bridge, etc. at/thi (and tha/thee) are forms of thou, which is still common in areas of Yorkshire, and this thou/you dichotomy will be familiar to those who speak German (Du, Sie), French (tu/vous) and many other European languages. Those people will therefore no doubt understand the well-known Yorkshire admonition to over-familiar folk: "Doan't thee thee-tha me! Tha thee-tha's them at' thee-tha's thee!
So, another post not about AI. I'm keeping my end up. Where are the rest of you??????
Last edited by John Fairbairn on Sat Mar 07, 2020 6:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Lee Sedol retires from the KBA

Post by xela »

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Re: Lee Sedol retires from the KBA

Post by Bill Spight »

OT

Speaking of thee, I was inspired to look around þe olde internette concerning Quaker usage. I ran across the following,

Q: What do you get when you cross a Quaker with a Jehovah's Witness?

A: Someone who knocks on your door and then says nothing for an hour.

;)
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