ZBaduk - LeeLa Zero and KataGo from your webbrowser

[go4thewin]

Thanks for the wonderful webapp! I know you have been trying to add variable komi, I don't know if this helps, but here is a page of a guy who did it https://katago-gui.herokuapp.com/index_mobile#
All the best!

[spook]

Thanks for the wonderful webapp! I know you have been trying to add variable komi, I don't know if this helps, but here is a page of a guy who did it https://katago-gui.herokuapp.com/index_mobile#
All the best!

Thank you for the link go4thewin. It's certainly inspirational from a graphical point of view.

Indeed variable komi will be in the next release of ZBaduk. (to be expected in a week or 2).
And I have been going through katago's source code, and it looks like adding dynamic rulesets is also possible.

By the way, some may have noticed that I have been putting some minor updates during the weekend.
Sorry for possible disconnects. (I have been trying to avoid those). Some of the things I worked on:

I stumbled accross an issue with GPU drivers, for which the load balancer is updated now.
I have been working on password resets as well. - I know, this sounds like fundamental.
And then of course a lot of plumbing for the dynamic komi (especially back-end side).

[Maharani]

Indeed variable komi will be in the next release of ZBaduk. (to be expected in a week or 2).

Awesome to hear - thank you! <333 Will this include the option for integer komi such as 7 (which KataGo does allow for)?

I've also noticed that the automatic disconnect seems to happen after more than sixty minutes now, which I also appreciate. Would you mind revealing the exact duration?

[zermelo]

Zbaduk is great! I use it all the time instead of my older cumbersome cloud gpu setup. I bought a 3-month subscription too and it's well worth the price.

One issue: KGS sgf's don't work when they have lot of comments. Zbaduk only shows the game up to the move with the offending comment. Probably something to do with some special characters or what not, because they work if I manually clean the comments.

[spook]

Will this include the option for integer komi such as 7

Here's a preview of what I am developing:

demo.jpg (38.16 KiB) Viewed 18755 times

Hmmm, ... you do have a point. As you can see, the connection screen starts to feel a little cramped, and I think in the long run, I have to redesign the entire screen, to add more options like "handicap", "network file", ... So, maybe I should release it as-is in the coming days, but then start working on a better connection screen in the coming weeks, which allows for integer komi.

I've also noticed that the automatic disconnect seems to happen after more than sixty minutes now, which I also appreciate. Would you mind revealing the exact duration?

Users who have no payed membership will see a popup message every 2 minutes. Those users will also be disconnected after 5 minutes if they are idle. Of course, for payed users we don't show any of these popup messages. And users don't ever get disconnected if they are active. (i.e. clicking through variations). Next, ZBaduk makes a distinction between being idle and "completely idle". If a user is "completely idle", i.e. not calculating anything, then it will get disconnected after 20 minutes. If a user is "just idle", i.e. still calculating but the user shows no signs of life, then it will get disconnected after 60 minutes. But the system only checks it once every 10 minutes. (so, it could take slightly longer). - Does that answer your question ?

---

One issue: KGS sgf's don't work when they have lot of comments. Zbaduk only shows the game up to the move with the offending comment. Probably something to do with some special characters or what not, because they work if I manually clean the comments.

If you send me the SGF file, I will debug it and provide a fix, promised . --> zbaduk361 at gmail dot com

PS: @Maharani and @Zermelo thank you for the kind feedback!

[Maharani]

It does not answer my question insofar as a couple of times, I was being "just idle" for longer than sixty minutes yet not disconnected, i. e. still caclculating, which I appreciated. Could the server have forgotten to check my idleness, yet still kept calculating?

[spook]

Finally, the ability to select komi, and also ruleset !
Only available if you select KataGo.

2020-02-09_022904.jpg (41.69 KiB) Viewed 18668 times

What needs to be done:
- if you first calculate with 7.5 komi, then reconnect and select 6.5 komi,
unfortunately, it will not clear previous statistics for you.
you have to clear those manually, using the clear statistics button in the "More..." dropdown.
- it does not automatically detect the komi and the ruleset of the SGF file yet, but I am working on that.

Originally, I was thinking about postponing integer komi values.
But in request of @Maharani, I did add a "Other komi" option in the dropdown which will enable you to enter any possible komi value.

(PS: I had to update the KataGo engine and its network as well to support the ruleset selection.
To be completely honest I guess I should clear the cached statistics. But I think it's better to cheat a little here, and keep those in.
As soon as the visits is exceeded they will be cleared anyway. Does that sound fair enough?)

There has been some tweaking in the SGF parsing as well. (to fix some bugs).
Unfortunately, more testing needs to be done there.
I will deal with this on monday

And last but not least. I added a password reset function and slightly redesigned login/registration pages.

login.jpg (25.93 KiB) Viewed 18666 times

[Maharani]

Thank you so. much. for implementing integer komi Also didn't know about the clear statistics option, super nice!

[Maharani]

My next big request for ZBaduk would be to investigate whether it is possible to use the "hide/show ownership" button without automatically losing connection to the server. This would be a beautiful "two birds with one yunzi" situation, because then I could use that button to show the server that I am "just idle" rather than "completely idle" and keep calculating for more than sixty minutes at a time

[spook]

My next big request for ZBaduk would be to investigate whether it is possible to use the "hide/show ownership" button without automatically losing connection to the server. This would be a beautiful "two birds with one yunzi" situation, because then I could use that button to show the server that I am "just idle" rather than "completely idle" and keep calculating for more than sixty minutes at a time

are you disconnected each time you use the "hide/show ownership" button ?
That's not supposed to happen. - * confused * a little more info please.
Also, feel free to send me an e-mail with screenshots or any additional info:
zbaduk361 at gmail dot com

[Maharani]

are you disconnected each time you use the "hide/show ownership" button ?
That's not supposed to happen. - * confused * a little more info please.

Affirmative. Whenever I use the button, the statistics freeze and calculation starts anew. Not sure how to show this with screenshots, though?

As a side note, I've had this issue since before I became a ZBaduk sponsor, see for example this post of mine from Christmas Eve: viewtopic.php?p=252255#p252255

[spook]

Affirmative. Whenever I use the button, the statistics freeze and calculation starts anew.

I just wanted to let you know that I can reconstruct the problem in mean time.
(More technical information is available here.)

[Maharani]

Great to hear. If this issue was resolved, would using the ownership button signal to the server that I'm just idle rather than completely idle? I assume it would depend on whether workaround 1 or 2 was implemented?

Otherwise (or maybe regardless ), would it be possible to increase the time-out limit to 120 minutes? :3 This would be tremendously helpful for me. I use ZBaduk to handcraft high-playout self-play games, and my hope from the start was that I would be able to do this for komi 7 to investigate how very strong AI plays when there's a possibility of ties. I am so excited that this is now possible for me. For this project, especially for the first 30 or 40 moves, I would love to have the potential for very high playouts in order to create as high-quality self-play games as possible. Ever since you've implemented the option of integer komi, I've been unsuccessfully trying to get to even 120,000 playouts for move 1 since the symmetry of the board causes KataGo to consider something like forty moves that have a winrate of 44 - 49 %, meaning that in order for the four best equivalent moves (the 4-4 points) to reach 120,000 playouts, the overall playouts need to reach roughly 1.2 million. With my current internet connection, sixty minutes always gets me more than half-way, but never all the way there. Two hours would satisfy my craving to get to the amount of playouts I'm wishing for.

On an unrelated note, ZBaduk is the only website I've visited in a very long time for which it is not sufficient to type zbaduk.com into my browser's address line (regardless of OS or browser), which produces a completely blank page (it doesn't seem to be a 404 type of error page, though). I need to specifically type https://zbaduk.com to reach the website when my browser cache is clear. Only a minor inconvenience, but a pretty non-standard one.

[xela]

Maharani, I'm really curious about what you're trying to achieve here (and I like the self-play games, please keep them coming!) Why do you need so many playouts for the first move? You know it's going to choose a 4-4 point anyway, so why not just put that move on the board and start your self-play game from there? (Unless you want to explore an "interesting" fuseki rather than AI's favourite fuseki, in which case the playouts and evaluations don't matter at all.)

Also, if you want 120k playouts for a specific move, rather than for the position as a whole, can't you just put that move on the board, get your 120k playouts (which is, what, ten minutes on ZBaduk?) and then backtrack?

[Maharani]

My best and most honest answer is that I'm incurably neurotic.

My slightly less honest but a bit more practical answer is that IMO, the easier it is to get to a million playouts (for any move, not just move 0), the better. For instance, there is a slight possibility that, with enough play-outs, Kata will start rating the 3-4 points better than the 4-4 points. I want to see if this is something that could happen with a million playouts of move 0.

Besides, I don't really understand what the need is to disconnect idle users in the first place... To lessen strain on the server? Worst case, someone accidentally falls asleep calculating, wakes up and doesn't save their progress. (If this happens before move 40, the calculations are saved to the server regardless*, which seems to me to be a net-positive outcome.) Best case, they accidentally fall asleep and wake up to find their move suddenly has 20 million playouts, giving Kata much more confidence for the resulting sequences (if the calculation is still running when they wake up). In spook's own words, "the only good use for a GPU is baduk mining", anyway.

* Side note: This does not seem to be the case for calculations based on komi 7. I don't really care, but I wonder if this a fluke or intentional?

Side-side note: Of course, these are all just awkward workarounds owing to the sad fact that AIs cannot currently save and later continue on from previous calculations... Thankfully, the decade is still young!