OK - I think those nuances include the fact that black's corner is smaller here, with more aji. But anyway, I think we've somewhat come to some sort of consensus.Bill Spight wrote:Sorry, I didn't mean that you should have learned that from this game. That's why I pointed it out to you.Kirby wrote:But saying that the default is to tenuki is not clear to me from analyzing this single game - maybe it would be for others. I played the same sequence 3 times, and it stuck out as problematic just once in the analysis. I don't know why that should dictate stomach churning on my part.
But if you had noted that AlphaGo omitted the three space extension in the similar joseki and had also noticed small preferences by bots against side extensions early in the opening, then you would have been primed to tenuki. In particular, I think you might well have occupied the open corner with.
As for the stomach churning, I intended to introduce a note of levity. It seems that I failed at that. I apologize.
Of course. But to tease out nuances you have to look at small differences in a number of games.This is a different joseki. Is it possible that there are different nuances here?Well, in my case I was fortunate enough to learn from Segoe that the high approach joseki with the three space extension was not in general good for the second player.
Kirby's Study Journal
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Kirby
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Re: Kirby's Study Journal
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ez4u
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Re: Kirby's Study Journal
I am curious. When did Shuei show this? According to GoGoD, the diagonal attachment against a low approach (without an intervening pincer) appears only 115 times through 2016 and 73 of those games were anyway played in the 21st century. The single game of Shuei's where it appeared was in 1879 when Shuei, as Black, played the attachment against Nakagawa Kamesaburo, who did not tenuki.Bill Spight wrote:A few caustic comments on the last game.
...
...
Dave Sigaty
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Bill Spight
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Re: Kirby's Study Journal
Thanks, Dave.ez4u wrote:I am curious. When did Shuei show this? According to GoGoD, the diagonal attachment against a low approach (without an intervening pincer) appears only 115 times through 2016 and 73 of those games were anyway played in the 21st century. The single game of Shuei's where it appeared was in 1879 when Shuei, as Black, played the attachment against Nakagawa Kamesaburo, who did not tenuki.Bill Spight wrote:A few caustic comments on the last game.
...
...
Maybe I misremembered, but I meant leaving the tachi shape without making the extension. It may well have occurred in one or more two stone games, but I thought it was in a no handicap game. Anyway, I formed the impression well before the AI era. Waltheri turns up the following game as a possibility, but it is Shusai, not Shuei, who tenukis.
OC, I was already familiar with ignoring a pincer and then playing the tachi in response to an early kick, which says that the tachi can fend for itself in the opening, but what I associated with Shuei was omitting the extension after the tachi. So maybe this was the game, but the Shuei was on the other foot.
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Re: Kirby's Study Journal
I am not sure you can safely commingle kicking from a 3-4 stone, as occurred in Kirby's game, with kicking from a 4-4 stone. The remaining potential is too different.
Dave Sigaty
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Re: Kirby's Study Journal
Here are my notes from the BIBA review we just had:
---
Some of the items pointed out matched what was already reviewed.
Here are some highlights:
Position 1 Playing in the empty corner was bigger than extending on top, Blackie thought. Here, I don't really know why they chose this pincer. From last week's BIBA review, I thought he'd play something like this: But I didn't get the chance to ask about it before they moved on.
--
Position 2
Blackie also noticed this move as being bad: But it wasn't just because it was extension or something. He said that it'd be normal to block on the other side, and use this extension as combo: He said this direction was normal for that. But if I'm gonna go for the other direction, he said that double hane was the way to go (just like leelazero said earlier in this thread): ---
Position 3 Blackie said that in this game, he wasn't sure, for the first two times that black kicked, if it was the right choice for black. But here in the bottom corner, he said it was perfect. The right side isn't big given all of the low stones, so just taking territory in the corner is perfect, he said.
---
Position 4 He said white caught up now, since white played in the top left first.
---
Position 5 The immediate cut didn't seem good to him. Rather, the left side was big.
---
Position 6 The left side was the right idea, but this was too low, he pointed out. Black can just reduce like this: White got very few points on the left, and black reduced both the left and top in sente. He said it was a very good result for black.
So instead, he said it'd be normal to just play this: This move helps the left, and isn't subject to the shoulder hit. It's just a much more normal way to play, he noted.
---
Position 7 Black's invasion on the left was a *big* minus, he said. White got really thick, and it was really early. Black lost more points than he gained. Even considering the top left corner, black ended up with just 4 points. But like this: Later black can play here and get a lot of points in the corner. It's worth a lot. But by living on the left, black lost points.
Regarding the left, by the way, he pointed out this possibility: But either way, white is happy with the invasion, he said.
---
Position 8
There are two similar positions in the game where I missed out in a similar way.
Here: and here: In both cases, I didn't sense that there was bad aji for the opponent. But there was stuff I could do: Black's whole group isn't totally safe, now!
And in the bottom right (if black resists): Recalling back to the game, I didn't see these options. That being said, I'm confident that I could have figured out that kind of aji -- *IF* I thought to look for it. It means that my sense or intuition for detecting a problem with the aji in that area hasn't been refined enough.
---
Some of the items pointed out matched what was already reviewed.
Here are some highlights:
Position 1 Playing in the empty corner was bigger than extending on top, Blackie thought. Here, I don't really know why they chose this pincer. From last week's BIBA review, I thought he'd play something like this: But I didn't get the chance to ask about it before they moved on.
--
Position 2
Blackie also noticed this move as being bad: But it wasn't just because it was extension or something. He said that it'd be normal to block on the other side, and use this extension as combo: He said this direction was normal for that. But if I'm gonna go for the other direction, he said that double hane was the way to go (just like leelazero said earlier in this thread): ---
Position 3 Blackie said that in this game, he wasn't sure, for the first two times that black kicked, if it was the right choice for black. But here in the bottom corner, he said it was perfect. The right side isn't big given all of the low stones, so just taking territory in the corner is perfect, he said.
---
Position 4 He said white caught up now, since white played in the top left first.
---
Position 5 The immediate cut didn't seem good to him. Rather, the left side was big.
---
Position 6 The left side was the right idea, but this was too low, he pointed out. Black can just reduce like this: White got very few points on the left, and black reduced both the left and top in sente. He said it was a very good result for black.
So instead, he said it'd be normal to just play this: This move helps the left, and isn't subject to the shoulder hit. It's just a much more normal way to play, he noted.
---
Position 7 Black's invasion on the left was a *big* minus, he said. White got really thick, and it was really early. Black lost more points than he gained. Even considering the top left corner, black ended up with just 4 points. But like this: Later black can play here and get a lot of points in the corner. It's worth a lot. But by living on the left, black lost points.
Regarding the left, by the way, he pointed out this possibility: But either way, white is happy with the invasion, he said.
---
Position 8
There are two similar positions in the game where I missed out in a similar way.
Here: and here: In both cases, I didn't sense that there was bad aji for the opponent. But there was stuff I could do: Black's whole group isn't totally safe, now!
And in the bottom right (if black resists): Recalling back to the game, I didn't see these options. That being said, I'm confident that I could have figured out that kind of aji -- *IF* I thought to look for it. It means that my sense or intuition for detecting a problem with the aji in that area hasn't been refined enough.
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Re: Kirby's Study Journal
Some overall takeaways from the review:
* I think I need to recognize the aji that occurred in the corner. In the last BIBA review there was something like this, too. So I should be on the lookout for finding aji in corners. There were the two opportunities here, plus the one I missed in last week's game in the top left. So it seems to happen a lot to me where there's some sort of aji to find.
* The extension on the left side gave opportunity for black to just shoulder hit. I should be careful about this. More modest 4th line extension is something I should think about.
* I think I need to recognize the aji that occurred in the corner. In the last BIBA review there was something like this, too. So I should be on the lookout for finding aji in corners. There were the two opportunities here, plus the one I missed in last week's game in the top left. So it seems to happen a lot to me where there's some sort of aji to find.
* The extension on the left side gave opportunity for black to just shoulder hit. I should be careful about this. More modest 4th line extension is something I should think about.
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Bill Spight
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Re: Kirby's Study Journal
Well, the robustness of the tachi response to the kick from the 3-4 stone was well established in previous centuries, where the three space extension was not available because of the previous pincer.ez4u wrote:I am not sure you can safely commingle kicking from a 3-4 stone, as occurred in Kirby's game, with kicking from a 4-4 stone. The remaining potential is too different.
OC, that does not mean that the extension would not have been made, if possible. I am not claiming that previous human experience told us that tenuki should be the default, only that it might be best, as a rule.The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
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Kirby
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Re: Kirby's Study Journal
Here's a BIBA game from today. His rank is 3d, so I was happy with the result:
I won, so I feel good about that. Overall, I feel relatively OK about most of the game. But I'd say I was too eager here: I think I can step back for a good result: Should be better, I think.
One thing I think I did well with this game is that I had more restraint than I sometimes do. Here are some examples of moves where I believe I had restraint I don't normally have:
I'm inclined to worry about the bottom. But taking a big point here seemed good, too!
Above, I think just getting a strong shape was something I don't usually do. I think it was good.
I won, so I feel good about that. Overall, I feel relatively OK about most of the game. But I'd say I was too eager here: I think I can step back for a good result: Should be better, I think.
One thing I think I did well with this game is that I had more restraint than I sometimes do. Here are some examples of moves where I believe I had restraint I don't normally have:
I'm inclined to worry about the bottom. But taking a big point here seemed good, too!
Above, I think just getting a strong shape was something I don't usually do. I think it was good.
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Re: Kirby's Study Journal
Here are my notes from the BIBA review:
Some of the highlights of comments on my moves: The move above was too deep. They didn't know what to do for black if white caps: So I was lucky that I wasn't attacked severely here.
Instead, he said this was fine: Black has points in other areas. So it's fine.
Then here: They said the opening was good for black. But this move is too slow for me: Blackie said the cut is no big deal, so not a problem not to defend: He said it wasn't that big for white...
That being said, I'm not really disappointed with this particular choice, given my typical aggressive style. I think Blackie is right here, but I want to try to keep a handle on playing in a controlled way.
Here: He said I missed the chance to do this: And then it's a lot more clear.
They didn't like this move: I was aiming at miai between cutting the stone and capturing the corner... But capturing the corner isn't necessarily that good: Basically, black can get the corner with something like this, but the result is still good for white with all white gets on the outside.
I thought my move was interesting since it threatened the corner, but I guess the corner wasn't everything here.
---
Blackie really didn't like this hane, given the weakness at the marked move (I alluded to this weakness in my own review): He said the proper way was to try to just attack the whole group: Later, black can attack the whole group in a move like the marked intersection.
White was a little easy on me, and didn't exploit the cut. There was even some time later to make use of it, though maybe, black already got some benefit: Here, black did get a lot on the right so it might be OK, but it's a better option for white than in the game, they said.
---
The overall feeling is that I overplayed a couple of times, even though I didn't realize it:
1.) My reduction on the bottom was too deep
2.) My move to try to threaten to take the corner wasn't worth it (corner wasn't big enough)
3.) My hane discussed above, was too much (just attack the whole group)
Some of the highlights of comments on my moves: The move above was too deep. They didn't know what to do for black if white caps: So I was lucky that I wasn't attacked severely here.
Instead, he said this was fine: Black has points in other areas. So it's fine.
Then here: They said the opening was good for black. But this move is too slow for me: Blackie said the cut is no big deal, so not a problem not to defend: He said it wasn't that big for white...
That being said, I'm not really disappointed with this particular choice, given my typical aggressive style. I think Blackie is right here, but I want to try to keep a handle on playing in a controlled way.
Here: He said I missed the chance to do this: And then it's a lot more clear.
They didn't like this move: I was aiming at miai between cutting the stone and capturing the corner... But capturing the corner isn't necessarily that good: Basically, black can get the corner with something like this, but the result is still good for white with all white gets on the outside.
I thought my move was interesting since it threatened the corner, but I guess the corner wasn't everything here.
---
Blackie really didn't like this hane, given the weakness at the marked move (I alluded to this weakness in my own review): He said the proper way was to try to just attack the whole group: Later, black can attack the whole group in a move like the marked intersection.
White was a little easy on me, and didn't exploit the cut. There was even some time later to make use of it, though maybe, black already got some benefit: Here, black did get a lot on the right so it might be OK, but it's a better option for white than in the game, they said.
---
The overall feeling is that I overplayed a couple of times, even though I didn't realize it:
1.) My reduction on the bottom was too deep
2.) My move to try to threaten to take the corner wasn't worth it (corner wasn't big enough)
3.) My hane discussed above, was too much (just attack the whole group)
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Re: Kirby's Study Journal
Played another BIBA game today at lunch during work. I was destroyed. Very rusty, and I missed obvious stuff, both in theory and in reading.
I might have been a little distracted, I guess. I resigned from my position at work today, and had to have a meeting with my manager. It's not really a stressful situation, but kind of awkward, and makes me feel weirdly guilty, nonetheless. I don't know why I should feel guilty, but somehow that feeling is there.
Anyway, here is the game:
Big blunder that got me way behind (my opinion - no bot analysis, yet): There is no good reason to cut now. And the marked weakness it leaves in my shape is obvious - textbook, maybe. But I wasn't feeling it today, I guess.
I should just respond on the right, and wait for an opportunity: Aji for cutting is still there for later.
This was the next, "What in the world am I thinking?" move: Pure hallucination.
I think that's all I'll point out here. Shortly after this, I switched on "try to make something happen" mode, so I wasn't playing in a normal way. Shouldn't have gotten to that point, but these two huge blunders put me there.
I might have been a little distracted, I guess. I resigned from my position at work today, and had to have a meeting with my manager. It's not really a stressful situation, but kind of awkward, and makes me feel weirdly guilty, nonetheless. I don't know why I should feel guilty, but somehow that feeling is there.
Anyway, here is the game:
Big blunder that got me way behind (my opinion - no bot analysis, yet): There is no good reason to cut now. And the marked weakness it leaves in my shape is obvious - textbook, maybe. But I wasn't feeling it today, I guess.
I should just respond on the right, and wait for an opportunity: Aji for cutting is still there for later.
This was the next, "What in the world am I thinking?" move: Pure hallucination.
I think that's all I'll point out here. Shortly after this, I switched on "try to make something happen" mode, so I wasn't playing in a normal way. Shouldn't have gotten to that point, but these two huge blunders put me there.
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Re: Kirby's Study Journal
Review of the BIBA game I just posted is going to be tomorrow. But in the meantime, I played a teaching game with Blackie. One of the benefits of BIBA is that you get to play a teaching game once a month.
Here's the game record:
We played with 5-stones. I didn't have confidence in winning, because I don't think I'm within 5 stones of a pro. But anyway, it was a teaching game, so I wanted to try like this.
A couple of highlights:
Position 1 Blackie says I should make the cut, above. In a weird display of passivity, I opted away from cutting. I was afraid of the cut at the marked intersection, which was unfounded, I guess.
Position 2 Kind of related, but the jump above doesn't go well with the other marked move. To put pressure on white, I should hane: This activates the cutting point at the marked intersection.
Position 3 The marked move is the wrong area - I should help that center/right group.
Position 4 The move above is too much - instead, try to live with this, he said: Position 5 Somehow, I thought this was like a joseki or something, but it's not good, he said. I should connect: Makes sense - I didn't think enough about it, because I thought I was playing a common pattern.
---
After tomorrow, I think it's the last review. I'll give a more thorough review in a little bit, but overall, I enjoyed the BIBA program. I won't be able to join for March, because I'm starting a new job soon, and I don't think I'll be able to play the lunchtime games I've been playing for BIBA. Folks are generally from Europe or Asia if they're in BIBA, so the lunchtime usually works for games. But since I am starting something new, I don't think I'm gonna have time for that.
I'd really like to stick with it, but I can only afford to play games in the evening my time, and that's not gonna work with the folks in BIBA (that'd mean games around the middle of the night for some folks in Europe).
Anyway, I'll post notes of the game review tomorrow - we'll review the game I already played earlier this week (from the last post).
Here's the game record:
We played with 5-stones. I didn't have confidence in winning, because I don't think I'm within 5 stones of a pro. But anyway, it was a teaching game, so I wanted to try like this.
A couple of highlights:
Position 1 Blackie says I should make the cut, above. In a weird display of passivity, I opted away from cutting. I was afraid of the cut at the marked intersection, which was unfounded, I guess.
Position 2 Kind of related, but the jump above doesn't go well with the other marked move. To put pressure on white, I should hane: This activates the cutting point at the marked intersection.
Position 3 The marked move is the wrong area - I should help that center/right group.
Position 4 The move above is too much - instead, try to live with this, he said: Position 5 Somehow, I thought this was like a joseki or something, but it's not good, he said. I should connect: Makes sense - I didn't think enough about it, because I thought I was playing a common pattern.
---
After tomorrow, I think it's the last review. I'll give a more thorough review in a little bit, but overall, I enjoyed the BIBA program. I won't be able to join for March, because I'm starting a new job soon, and I don't think I'll be able to play the lunchtime games I've been playing for BIBA. Folks are generally from Europe or Asia if they're in BIBA, so the lunchtime usually works for games. But since I am starting something new, I don't think I'm gonna have time for that.
I'd really like to stick with it, but I can only afford to play games in the evening my time, and that's not gonna work with the folks in BIBA (that'd mean games around the middle of the night for some folks in Europe).
Anyway, I'll post notes of the game review tomorrow - we'll review the game I already played earlier this week (from the last post).
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Bill Spight
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Re: Kirby's Study Journal
Good luck with your new job!
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
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Kirby
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Re: Kirby's Study Journal
Thank you, Bill. I am a little worried, because I suspect that work life balance will be a bit worse. That being said, it sounds interesting, and I won't know until I try. I'm worried, but also excited!Bill Spight wrote:Good luck with your new job!
Once things get rolling, I'll see how go fits into my life, again. I'm sure I'll find a way
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Re: Kirby's Study Journal
Here is the BIBA review of my game from earlier this week:
Some of the comments were similar - there's the same sentiment I had that the cut in the bottom left was really bad.
Overall, I felt a little embarrassed to show this game. But anyway, it was good to get some advice.
Some of the comments were similar - there's the same sentiment I had that the cut in the bottom left was really bad.
Overall, I felt a little embarrassed to show this game. But anyway, it was good to get some advice.
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Re: Kirby's Study Journal
Here’s a link to Blackie’s live commentary from our game: https://m.twitch.tv/videos/559650755
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