Opening problems for AI: Problem 12

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John Fairbairn
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Re: Opening problems for AI: Problem 12

Post by John Fairbairn »

I remember looking at that game several times, and each time not understanding the significance of those three stones. For me, they seemed like kikashi: Black answered below, so there is no loss in throwing them away. Definitely not key stones. I always thought that maybe there is a lesson here that I failed to understand.
I don't know how far I've gone on the road to understanding - not very far, I'm certain - but I know I have had similar thoughts. However, some of my thoughts seem to differ from yours in detail, and if you don't mind me sharing them here, they may offer you an extra signpost or two.

Where we definitely seem to differ is that you wrote "key stones". I wrote "keystone". I infer therefore that you are understanding the term as "important stones". That's not quite right. Keystone is an architectural term for a specific stone that holds an arch together. All stones in the arch are obviously important, but the keystone rather more so. In addition, the pre-westernised Japanese version of the term (kaname ishi) has some quite different connotations. There is a shrine somewhere in Japan (I've forgotten the name) with a famous kaname ishi which has nothing at all to do with arches, but is a huge stone whose purpose is to "soothe" earthquakes, and so stop the wooden shrine connected to it from falling down. Viewing Go's three stones, and similar groupings, as that kind of stone formation makes a lot more sense to me in go than visualising Norman arches and western churches. I then make a further leap of imagination and see GSG's three-stones as Athena's spear as fending off Kitani's attempts to shake the earth - Athena, goddess of wisdom and battle strategy, having the nerve to take on mighty Poseidon. (That's partly stimulated by the big difference in body frames of Go and Kitani. Just the way my mind works.)

Calling them pivot stones has similar problems. Kaname is said to derive from kani no me (crab's eye), me (eye) being a common word for a hole. The (Japanese) keystone is put in that hole. The hole, not the stone, represents the pivot. And hole can be simply a depression at some mid-point in the opponent's position. It doesn't have to be a cut. Again, I personally find it very helpful to visualise the go term in this "etymological" way.

As to the function of kaname ishi, a word association I like to use is "disruptive". I see a lot of AI play as disruptive, whereas as humans have an urge to be creative (literally so, rather than imaginative). And that should come as no surprise. Go is game of alternating turns. At literally very single step of the game, the opponent is disrupting what you have just tried to create. Learning to handle that disruption is very hard - as Kitani found. I have no idea how to do it, but I sense it may be a matter of mindset rather than technique. In the same way that people usually think only of magnets attracting (magnetic personality, and so on) and forget they also repel, I think go players think too much of creating territories, bases, moyos, and too little of disrupting. They don't forget it entirely, simply because the alternating flow of the game forces them to acknowledge it. But masters like GSG and AI really take it on board, and I think that disruption (not destruction, such as with invasions) is what we are seeing when linchpin stones (kaname ishi) work successfully.

Maybe we should call them banjax stones. Ian might agree :)
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Re: Opening problems for AI: Problem 12

Post by bernds »

Harleqin wrote:Now with bot analysis, one might be tempted to say that I was right, but I do not think that it is so easy. There must be some merit to the moves Kitani made, it's just that other aspects dominate at that point in the game. One thing to notice is maybe that White turning where Black “crawled” would have quite an impact on the development on the right side. Maybe it is interesting to take a look at what happens in that area, and when, if the bots have their way.
Michael Redmond was reviewing the game last week on the Twitch stream. He pointed out (I think around move 15/17) that it was Kitani's style to make extremely solid positions in the beginning of the game, which then often allowed him to find ways to devastate the opponent's areas with difficult sequences involving ko.
I suspect the second part of the review might be coming up tonight actually.
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Re: Opening problems for AI: Problem 12

Post by Bill Spight »

On those three stones

Not that I have any great understanding, but I think that John Fairbairn is on the right track. I think that the place to start is with the first stone.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Variation for :w6:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . a 5 . . . . |
$$ | . . . 6 . . . . . , . . . 4 . , 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 2 . . . |
$$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
:w6: on D-16, which Elf recommends, would bear a relation to :w4: which Go Seigen likes in his Go Seigen: 21st Century Go series. Note that this position could be reached by a transposition of :w4: and :w6:. In that case :w6: would be a shoulder blow against the keima enclosure in the top right corner. Go Seigen recommended such moves long before the bots did. :) Against the corner enclosure :w4: threatens a and b. White a, of course, generates influence on the top side, while White b has an effect on the right side. Because of this dual threat on different sides, I think the idea of :w4: as a pivot stone is apt.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm23 Elf's main variation for :w6:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . a X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . W 1 , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O X O . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
(Too many plays to number in one diagram.) After White occupies the top left corner, Black encloses the bottom left corner, then White encloses the top left corner. Black then invades the bottom right corner, with the indicated result. It is only now that :b23: becomes urgent in the top right corner. After the ponnuki in the bottom right, the right side becomes more urgent that the top side, which explains why :b23: blocks in that direction instead of crawling at a, or playing otherwise on the top side. Before :w23:, :wc: has a reducing (i.e.,disruptive) effect on any Black development of the right side.
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Re: Opening problems for AI: Problem 12

Post by Bill Spight »

John Fairbairn wrote:As to the function of kaname ishi, a word association I like to use is "disruptive". I see a lot of AI play as disruptive, whereas as humans have an urge to be creative (literally so, rather than imaginative). And that should come as no surprise. Go is game of alternating turns. At literally very single step of the game, the opponent is disrupting what you have just tried to create. Learning to handle that disruption is very hard - as Kitani found. I have no idea how to do it, but I sense it may be a matter of mindset rather than technique.
Chess GM Ben Finegold says in one of his talks that GM's try to figure out what their opponent wants to do and then prevent that. In go this idea is enshrined in the proverb, The opponent's play is my play. Among go amateurs you sometimes see the pole of non-disruptive play in what I call the gentlemen's game between DDKs, where each player slowly builds upon what they have already built and allows the other player to do so, as well. "Please be my guest. Don't mind if I do." :)
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Re: Opening problems for AI: Problem 12

Post by Bill Spight »

About 2 stones
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm9
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . O 1 , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 a . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . X . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
The exchange, :b9: - :w10:, hasn't made much difference. The influence of the two stones towards the top side and center has increased that of the one stone, while the influence towards the right side has diminished little, if at all. OC, Black's center has been strengthened. :b11: at a seems to be a serious mistake.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11 Elf's mainline for :b11:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . , 4 . 3 . . 5 . . . O X , X . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . X . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
:b11: approaches the top left corner. Then :w12: makes a base on the left side. :b13: and :b15: then counteract the influence of the two stones on the top side, something that would not have been so urgent with only one White stone in the top right.

After :b11: in the game, Elf thinks that White should enclose the top left corner.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm12 Elf's mainline for :w12:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . O X , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O B . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 5 b . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . X . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
After :w12: :b13: carries out the threat of :b11:, making a hane at the head of two stones, which, OC, weakens the two stones and blocks their influence on the right side while increasing Black's influence there. :w14: extends on the right side and after the approach of :b15:, so does :w16:. If :b15: approaches from the right side at a, White plays a pincer at b.
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

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Bill Spight
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Re: Opening problems for AI: Problem 12

Post by Bill Spight »

A bit more about the three stones
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm9 Moves 9 to 12
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . O 1 , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 3 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . X . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
After :w12: the three stones are too strong for a continued close assault. The exchanges so far have strengthened them. Elf still likes approaching the top left corner for :b13:.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm13 Variation: White sphere of influence
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . 4 X . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . 2 . . . , . . . O X , X . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . X . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
In this case :w14: replies to :b13: with the keima extension, which allows Black to pincer with :b15:. Then :w16: makes a nice wall which, with :w14: and the D-17 stone, form a White sphere of influence on the top side. OC, with a 7 point gap it is rather thin.

The odds of winning or losing may not have changed much, but :w14: appears to refute Black's play in the top right. In the game :b13: prevents that development with the turn at 16.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm13 Moves 13 to 17
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . 4 . 3 . 5 . . 1 X . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . O X , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . X . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
In fact, with :b13: - :b17: Black makes territory on the top side, countering White's influence there.

Now we come to the Black blunder, :b21:.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21 Moves 21 to 28
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O . X . X . . X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . O X , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . b . . . . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . O 1 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . a 3 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 2 . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . |
$$ | . . . O . . e . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . c , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . d X X . . . . . 5 . . 7 . 6 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
:b21: takes away a liberty from the three stones and reduces their influence on the right side. But it does not itself exert much influence on the right side. :w22: freely extends to R-10. :b23:, which appears to be a minor error, does exert more influence there, but :w24: pretty well nullifies it. The game develops normally through :b27:.

At this point Elf gives Black only a 4½% chance of winning with 7½ komi. A tewari in the top right makes Black look overconcentrated there to me. Isn't it easy now to give up those three stones?

:w28: was a counter-hane at a, and Go Seigen actually ended up saving the three stones. Elf prefers b, c, d, or e instead, by about 5% each.
The Adkins Principle:
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— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.
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Re: Opening problems for AI: Problem 12

Post by dhu163 »

Speculatively:
Current position:
1. S15 is very obvious and how could it be bad? W will be harassed more if B gets S15 in sente? R15 seems bad as W is too low on libs.
2. M15 comes to mind but after S15 S17 K17, I don't see what W is doing. M14 K17 N12 seems more appropriate locally.

Opp to play
1. S15 obviously

Past:
1. I much prefer W. B seems to have nothing with bad shape, needing to capture the cutting stones but can't and isn't even much territory if captured.

Check:
1. close enough
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