Opening problems for AI: Problem 15

For lessons, as well as threads about specific moves, and anything else worth studying.
Post Reply
Bill Spight
Honinbo
Posts: 10905
Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2010 1:24 pm
Has thanked: 3651 times
Been thanked: 3373 times

Opening problems for AI: Problem 15

Post by Bill Spight »

Karigane's opening was rather good. He rarely made more than minor errors. As White in this no komi game he has already made a number of minor errors, but that was not unusual in no komi games, to make the game difficult for Black. His opponent, Takabe Dohei, made a standard play that was a real mistake, losing 12½% to par, according to Elf. The game is GoGoD 1922-12-03a.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm13 Black to play.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.
Top
Bill Spight
Honinbo
Posts: 10905
Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2010 1:24 pm
Has thanked: 3651 times
Been thanked: 3373 times

Re: Opening problems for AI: Problem 15

Post by Bill Spight »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm13 High enclosure
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . , a . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X , 1 . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
As you might have guessed, Black played the enclosure in the bottom left corner.

You might also have guessed that Elf played the AI favorite, the press at a. Not so. But starting with the press could easily transpose into the mainline variation below.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm13 Elf's mainline
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 3 . 6 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 1 a . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O 4 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Elf chose the reducing play, the side attachment at Q-08. White could reply with the underneath hane at a or the clamp at 15, but prefers the more aggressive 5th line hane, :w14:.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm19 Elf's mainline, continued
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O 2 . 4 . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . , 1 3 . . . , . . . 5 . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
After :w18: Black switches to the press in the top left corner. Then Black plays the press in the top right corner. Finally, White approaches the bottom left corner.

Elf's follow-up on the right side is of some interest, I believe. :)
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm25 Elf's mainline, III
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . O . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . , X X . . . , . . . X . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O 4 . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 2 1 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 X X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 6 O X 5 3 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Black sacrifices :b25: to cut White in two. Then after pushing out into the center, :b33: attacks the White group in the top right, taking away a potential eye.
Last edited by Bill Spight on Fri Jun 04, 2021 2:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.
Top
User avatar
Harleqin
Lives in sente
Posts: 921
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2010 10:31 am
Rank: German 2 dan
GD Posts: 0
Has thanked: 401 times
Been thanked: 164 times

Re: Opening problems for AI: Problem 15

Post by Harleqin »

Elf's :w18: is certainly something I would hate to play. And even seeing the outcome, I would think that there must be a better way than the hane above at :w14:.
A good system naturally covers all corner cases without further effort.
Top
User avatar
topazg
Tengen
Posts: 4511
Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2010 3:08 am
Rank: Nebulous
GD Posts: 918
KGS: topazg
Location: Chatteris, UK
Has thanked: 1579 times
Been thanked: 650 times
Contact:
Contact topazg

Re: Opening problems for AI: Problem 15

Post by topazg »

I'm nowhere near strong enough to criticise here, but this:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm13 Elf's mainline
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 3 . 6 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 1 a . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O 4 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Feels like
:w14: - "Must resist!"
:w16: - "Hmmm, maybe I need to fix this first"
:w18: - "Ah, maybe I shouldn't have done that, I ought to connect"

... now if Black's group doesn't end up unpleasantly heavy (which it didn't seem to), I don't understand why White is so happy for the :w14: / :b15: exchange
Top
Bill Spight
Honinbo
Posts: 10905
Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2010 1:24 pm
Has thanked: 3651 times
Been thanked: 3373 times

Re: Opening problems for AI: Problem 15

Post by Bill Spight »

topazg wrote:I'm nowhere near strong enough to criticise here, but this:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm13 Elf's mainline
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 3 b 6 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 1 a . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O 4 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Feels like
:w14: - "Must resist!"
:w16: - "Hmmm, maybe I need to fix this first"
:w18: - "Ah, maybe I shouldn't have done that, I ought to connect"

... now if Black's group doesn't end up unpleasantly heavy (which it didn't seem to), I don't understand why White is so happy for the :w14: / :b15: exchange
I am not exactly qualified, either, but I checked out some other games, and even took a look at Sakata's Tesuji and Zokusuji of Go after all these years. Here goes:

a is too passive. Black will reply at b.

If 16 Black can simply stand at 14 with sente and I have gotten pushed around.

How about :w14: first, forcing :b15: (probably), then :w16:? Now Black can jump down to the second line, but that's not a problem. So Black turns with :b17:. :w18: doesn't connect to :wc:, but to cut it off Black has to sacrifice a stone and make bad shape. In the ensuing fight I am well positioned to run out into the center.
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.
Top
dhu163
Lives in gote
Posts: 474
Joined: Tue Jan 05, 2016 6:36 am
Rank: UK 2d Dec15
GD Posts: 0
KGS: mathmo 4d
IGS: mathmo 4d
Has thanked: 62 times
Been thanked: 278 times

Re: Opening problems for AI: Problem 15

Post by dhu163 »

Speculatively:
Current position:
1. The AI move is always press 3-4 (E16) when pincered unless against a one space high pincer (in which other moves are possible). This is great in combination with attacking at C9 and later pressing at O16. F16 should be ok too as B has ladder in lower right.
2. Otherwise, F3 and M17 come to mind.

Opp to play
1. C16/F16 to attack

Past:
1. B has no wrong shapes but W pincer on left is early and W shape on right is overconcentrated and yet still a bit thin. B is ahead.

Check:
1. Though I am aware that 13 is the main shape point, I didn't consider playing it so early. re: post 4: the point of 13 appears to be worried W's plan is to remove the R9 thinness by attacking perhaps with O15. In the diagram, W answers everything, willing to make R7 a one space connection that still doesn't connect above. The fact is that B is cut off though with a fairly heavy group.
Top
Post Reply

Return to “Study Group”