The Orient and Other PC Discussion

[Horibe]

[So why is 'Oriental' an issue?

I am not endorsing this point of view, I am simply trying to explain it.

We all have differences, we are all of a given race, or from a given continent, or have other characteristics that can be described.

For Asian people, particularly in the U.S, I believe Oriental is objected too because it suggests an additional boundary from inclusion. I may be German, I may be Chinese, but we are all Americans.

But Oriental puts a layer of otherness, of exotic difference. The Orient is not the name of a specific place, it puts the Oriental east of here.

I think this is the objection, regardless of whether such exotic difference is meant or not, or even meant and highly valued.

Personally, while I can think of better things to be upset about, I can understand not liking being defined as coming from East of the important people. I find it easy to say "Asian" myself.

[kex]

P.S. Many older Blacks refer to themselves as Negros on census forms. I have no idea what to make of that.

When I was a child, during the 70's, I was told that the word Negro is the one that we should use, as it is neutral, while the word that is replaced on this forum by "melanin enhanced gentleman" is pejorative and we should not use that. (or, actually, the corresponding words in Finnish, naturally)

When I look at my grandmother's old school book from 1910's, it tells about "negros" in a condescending way that sounds ridiculous in my more modern ears. I can see that even if it uses the currently banned word. On the other hand, I can imagine a lot of appreciative or neutral sentences could be written using the same banned word (such as "Most of the best sprinters in the world are negros."), so I don't really understand this word banning phenomenon.

The Negro -> Black -> African American (do these people really consider themselves African?) -> Tanned (?) sequence is not the only example. In a few years, we will run out of words, as more and more subjects are subject to terminology changes.

yours,
Ignorant white guy.

[hyperpape]

@Bantari: It was 'oriental' in contexts where race was being referred to. So the point was "call us Japanese/Chinese/Korean/Fillipino, etc, or 'Asian', not 'Oriental'."

Mostly, the "just call us American" crowd consists of Whites. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scotch-Iri ... stribution (see the comment about the census).

The Negro -> Black -> African American (do these people really consider themselves African?) -> Tanned (?) sequence is not the only example. In a few years, we will run out of words, as more and more subjects are subject to terminology changes.

Just for the record, I'm pasty pasty pasty white, and I say 'Black' except in formal contexts where I might say "African-American" or "African" depending on which term applies. African American means "American descended from Africans" to point out the obvious.

I do not remember anyone ever correcting me. For awhile, "African American" was more popular, but it seems to coexist with 'Black'. As far as I know, the only person to use tanned as a racial designation was Silvio Berlusconi.

My point is that contrary to people's bizarre fears, we're not headed for a dystopian future where we run out of words for Black people.

[Kirby]

The point is, some people get offended by things. You might think that their taking offense is silly or irrational.

If you care about their feeling, you try to come to a resolution - whatever it may be. If you don't care, then... there you go.

That's all there is to it.

[simpkin]

What's more, I have just spoke with a few Chinese scientists we have working for us, and the consensus was that they were ok with the words 'Orient' and 'Oriental'. My wife also does not have any problems with that. As a matter of fact, they all seem surprised that its even an issue.

I mean - I am not saying that there are no Oriental people who get offended at being called such, but who are they?

I am puzzled over the flap about calling people "Oriental". I have never heard anyone use the term in a derogatory manner. (Maybe I do not run in right -- err, wrong circles.) Nor have I met anyone from the Orient who objected to it. Plainly, some people object, but I do not know why.

Yes, you have seen someone using it in a derogatory manner - Richard Mullens, upthread, referring to the "exotic mystique of Oriental women". And Hyperpape has admirably explained why this is a derogatory usage.

Further, you have seen someone being offended by it - cdybeijing, who lives in Beijing (I have no information about his/her ethnicity) who said s/he cringed when s/he heard the word.

[simpkin]

The whole "PC" thing is often ridiculous. I have to laugh that. in the USA, it is wrong to call someone "colored" but OK to say "person of color"

That's not "PC". It's one thing to be "noun"; it's quite another to be a person who has a characteristic.

If you say "Jenny is an asthmatic" you are describing and defining me solely and exclusively through my disability. If you say "Jenny has asthma" or "Jenny is a person with asthma", you are acknowledging first that I am a human being and merely noting my disability as one of potentially many characteristics.

It sounds tiny and petty. In each individual single instance, it is tiny (though not petty). But if you go through life only ever being defined as a noun - particularly a noun that is sub-humanised by human history - you are made to feel fractionally less human with every instance.

So, it is polite, please, to call me "a person with asthma", not "an asthmatic". And as someone has already mentioned on this thread - please say that "Nie Weiping is Chinese", not "Nie Weiping is a Chinaman".

[Bill Spight]

What's more, I have just spoke with a few Chinese scientists we have working for us, and the consensus was that they were ok with the words 'Orient' and 'Oriental'. My wife also does not have any problems with that. As a matter of fact, they all seem surprised that its even an issue.

I mean - I am not saying that there are no Oriental people who get offended at being called such, but who are they?

I am puzzled over the flap about calling people "Oriental". I have never heard anyone use the term in a derogatory manner. (Maybe I do not run in right -- err, wrong circles.) Nor have I met anyone from the Orient who objected to it. Plainly, some people object, but I do not know why.

Yes, you have seen someone using it in a derogatory manner - Richard Mullens, upthread, referring to the "exotic mystique of Oriental women". And Hyperpape has admirably explained why this is a derogatory usage.

No, I missed that.

Further, you have seen someone being offended by it - cdybeijing, who lives in Beijing (I have no information about his/her ethnicity) who said s/he cringed when s/he heard the word.

cdybeijing later explained that cringing about the term, the Orient, was because of its imprecision.

[hyperpape]

Interesting how the rationales for those who think 'oriental' might have problems vary so much. I admit that this our reactions are very hard to systematize, but that doesn't mean they're necessarily invalid.

I have a hard time seeing the problem with the phrase 'an asthmatic' (I'm a very mild asthmatic), while on the other hand, I cringe at the phrase 'an autist' (I don't think I'm one, but as an obsessive nerd with social oddities and a tendency to rock back and forth, I feel a certain "team spirit"). Is the "an X" rather than "person with X" pattern intrinsically bad? I have no idea.

[deja]

I prefer to use the following terms for my fellow Brits across the pond:

Limey
Redcoat
Crumpet-Stuffer
Chinless-Wonder
Wanker

But I guess my personal favorite is: tea-wopping-limey-rooineck-fog-breathing-colonialist-wanker. Yes, it's mouth full but it just slides off the tongue so eloquently. What's the big deal anyway?

[Bantari]

Yes, you have seen someone using it in a derogatory manner - Richard Mullens, upthread, referring to the "exotic mystique of Oriental women". And Hyperpape has admirably explained why this is a derogatory usage.

Further, you have seen someone being offended by it - cdybeijing, who lives in Beijing (I have no information about his/her ethnicity) who said s/he cringed when s/he heard the word.

1) Saying somebody is 'mysterious' is not derogatory. Many try hard to be viewed as 'mysterious'. I'd say it is a compliment, but its just me... I, for example, am VERY mysterious!!!

2) Hyperpape might have explained why he thinks this or that, but this does not necessarily make it so.

3) About cdybeijing - so we have one person who feels offended (is he/she even Oriental?) and plenty of confirmed Oriental people who do not. If this is a criterion for not using a word, we will run out of words within a week!! In ANY language! You can ALWAYS find one person who feel offended by almost anything you say. Maybe even two people.

<sarcasm>
Personally, I feel offended by you using any of the following words:

Yes, you have seen someone using it in a derogatory manner - Richard Mullens, upthread, referring to the "exotic mystique of women". And Hyperpape has admirably explained why this is a derogatory usage. Further, you have seen someone being offended by it - cdybeijing, who lives in Beijing (I have no information about his/her ethnicity) who said s/he cringed when s/he heard the word.

Why? I just do!
And somehow, I only feel in this way when YOU say these words.
Each time you use any of these words, I can't help but feel like you're picking on me, and this makes me feel like you discriminate against people who have independent opinions.

So stop using such derogatory words!
Really.
</sarcasm>

[simpkin]

If you say "Jenny is an asthmatic" you are describing and defining me solely and exclusively through my disability. If you say "Jenny has asthma" or "Jenny is a person with asthma", you are acknowledging first that I am a human being and merely noting my disability as one of potentially many characteristics.

It sounds tiny and petty. In each individual single instance, it is tiny (though not petty). But if you go through life only ever being defined as a noun - particularly a noun that is sub-humanised by human history - you are made to feel fractionally less human with every instance.

So, it is polite, please, to call me "a person with asthma", not "an asthmatic".

It seems to me that "Jenny is a person who is very sensitive."

Congratulations on your inability to understand an analogy. I was trying to find something non-controversial and calm.

I will come back when I have time and try to explain further using other, more unpleasant examples, if the idea of extrapolating is really impossible for people.

[topazg]

So, it is polite, please, to call me "a person with asthma", not "an asthmatic". And as someone has already mentioned on this thread - please say that "Nie Weiping is Chinese", not "Nie Weiping is a Chinaman".

I normally agree with you on lots of things, so I'm assuming I'm missing something here rather than the other way round, but this strikes me as odd. Are you trying to say that I should say you are a "person whose gender is female" rather than "a woman"?

I'm a man. I'm British. I'm 28. I'm lots of nouns that I have no objection to people saying I am. I don't feel dehumanised by being lumped in with a pot of other people who share a similarity to me, and I'm not quite sure why I'm supposed to?

[Joaz Banbeck]

I'm a man. I'm British. I'm 28.

No you can't say that. It is: "I'm a human who happens to be male, happens to live in Britian, and happens to be 28 years old."

Ooops! I can't say that. There are other great apes. Let me try again: "You're a primate who happens to be human...

Dang! I must be sensitive to the feelings of other vertebrates. "You are a vertebrate who happents to be a primate, who happens to be a human...

Oh dear! There are invertebrates. I'm gonna quit before I offend a vegatable.

[simpkin]

So, it is polite, please, to call me "a person with asthma", not "an asthmatic". And as someone has already mentioned on this thread - please say that "Nie Weiping is Chinese", not "Nie Weiping is a Chinaman".

I normally agree with you on lots of things, so I'm assuming I'm missing something here rather than the other way round, but this strikes me as odd. Are you trying to say that I should say you are a "person whose gender is female" rather than "a woman"?

I'm a man. I'm British. I'm 28. I'm lots of nouns that I have no objection to people saying I am. I don't feel dehumanised by being lumped in with a pot of other people who share a similarity to me, and I'm not quite sure why I'm supposed to?

Damned good question, when you put it like that. Please watch this space while I go away and think about it.

There are two obvious things which spring to mind, at least as long as I consider the latter two of your examples: one is that it's probably only mentioned when it's relevant, which is important in general, and the second is that they are rarely pejorative terms and almost never pejorative terms on a large sociological level. But gender - well, in an ideal world it would only be referred to when relevant, and wouldn't be pejorative anyway, but neither of those things are true and I definitely need to think long and hard about whether there's a difference difference between this and other nouns, or whether in fact the terms have the potential to be a problem.

Thank you for making me think.

[amnal]

I'm a man. I'm British. I'm 28.

No you can't say that. It is: "I'm a human who happens to be male, happens to live in Britian, and happens to be 28 years old."

Ooops! I can't say that. There are other great apes. Let me try again: "You're a primate who happens to be human...

Dang! I must be sensitive to the feelings of other vertebrates. "You are a vertebrate who happents to be a primate, who happens to be a human...

Oh dear! There are invertebrates. I'm gonna quit before I offend a vegatable.

This is a strawman construction based on an argument that I don't think anyone is actually making. Least of all simpkin, if that's the post you're referencing.

The subtlety of language usage being in some way derogatory depends on context and is hard to describe. The use of asthma is perhaps an awkward example too, unless you consider it to bear a stigma for some reason (though it does still make sense, I think).

Simpkin has an excellent point to be made, though, and I think she can elucidate much better than I can with my own vague grasp of what she means. I hope people will not mock a point that they simply haven't understood yet.