Martian problem

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jaeup
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Re: Martian problem

Post by jaeup »

Gérard TAILLE wrote:The problem seems to be a misunderstanding of japonese rules.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -----------------------
$$ | . X O . O O X O . O |
$$ | X X O O O O X O . O |
$$ | . X X O O O X X O O |
$$ | X X O O O X X O 1 O |
$$ | O O O . O X . X O O |
$$ | X X O O O X X O O X |
$$ | . X X X O O O X X X |
$$ | X X X X X O O X . X |
$$ | X . X . X X O O X . |
$$ | X X . X X X X O X X |
$$ -----------------------[/go]
In the situation above my understanding is that after black :b1: white pass, black pass white, in order to avoid losing the game can claim to play in the molasses ko.
Indeed there are some misunderstandings on the fate of the molasses ko in the Japanese rule. This shape has never been judged in the three Asian rules, and I am sure the rulemakers have never thought of this shape, but here is one basic principle of the Korean/Japanese rule worth remembering: the whole board repetition other than the simple ko recapture is not prohibited. The sequence repeating the whole board position includes passes, but the rule also does not prohibit it.

Thus, if it occurs in a major tournament game, I believe the likely result is a draw (or no result if the term matters). I have not talked with someone in Nihon Ki-in, but at least the Korean pros I have talked with (including those who wrote the Korean rule) agreed that a draw is the proper result for this shape. (Thinking of the way the Chinese rule has been applied in reality, I think they will also rule it a draw.)

The situation can be quite complicated in that until almost the last moment, the players have no reason to pass, and the whole board does not repeat. Unless the rule allows the players to "anticipate the whole board repetition and stop the game", due to the molasses sequence, the game may continue for 24 hours until :D the draw finally occurs.
Jaeup Kim
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Author of the Book "Understanding the Rules of Baduk", available at https://home.unist.ac.kr/professor/juki ... ce&wr_id=5
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Re: Martian problem

Post by Bill Spight »

@Gérard TAILLE
jaeup wrote:Second approach: After White passes, black passes. The game temporarily stops but White can request the resumption of the game. Black will play first, but has nothing to do, and White will eventually capture all Black stones. Now, be careful that Black can keep playing as if almost a new game stared. Depending on the captured stone numbers and komi, Black may still have a chance to win. Anyway, this is a better result than the first approach.
Jaeup is right. :) Since I had already talked about reopening the play and you had not mentioned it, I thought you were asking about the result with hypothetical play, which is rather strange. ;)

Edit: Let me reconsider. Black took the ko and then each player passed in turn. Now White requires resumption of play, with Black to play first. Black passes. But the ko ban is still in effect, so White must pass, as well. The play is over.
Last edited by Bill Spight on Sun Sep 13, 2020 10:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Martian problem

Post by Bill Spight »

Matti wrote:With japanese rules in hypothetical play the circled white stones can also be called dead.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -----------------------
$$ | . X O . O O X W 3 O |
$$ | X X O O O O X W 1 O |
$$ | . X X O O O X X O O |
$$ | X X O O O X X 2 B O |
$$ | O O O . O X 4 B O O |
$$ | X X O O O X X O O X |
$$ | . X X X O O O X X X |
$$ | X X X X X O O X . X |
$$ | X . X . X X O O X . |
$$ | X X . X X X X O X X |
$$ -----------------------[/go]
Now :b5: passes for the ko at 4. Play continues.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -----------------------
$$ | . X O . O O X 8 B O |
$$ | X X O O O O X 6 B O |
$$ | . X X O O O X X O O |
$$ | X X O O O X X W . O |
$$ | O O O . O X W 7 O O |
$$ | X X O O O X X O O X |
$$ | . X X X O O O X X X |
$$ | X X X X X O O X . X |
$$ | X . X . X X O O X . |
$$ | X X . X X X X O X X |
$$ -----------------------[/go]
But now, since Black has not passed for the second ko she cannot take it and White can capture all the Black stones in the molasses ko.
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Re: Martian problem

Post by Gérard TAILLE »

Matti wrote:
Gérard TAILLE wrote:
Matti wrote:
In addition the martian problem is supposed to start with a position ignoring all the previous moves. As a consequence you cannot make the assomption that a move is unplayable due to a ko.
You didn't state this in the problem.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -----------------------
$$ | . X O . O O X . X O |
$$ | X X O c . O X . X O |
$$ | . X X O O O X X O O |
$$ | X X O . O X X O . O |
$$ | O O O . O X W . O O |
$$ | X X O O O X X O O X |
$$ | . X X X O O O X X X |
$$ | X X X X X b O X . X |
$$ | X . . . X X O O X . |
$$ | X X . X X a X O X X |
$$ -----------------------[/go]

Yes Matti, of course I realize that I did not mentionned this point, sorry for that.

Anyway, taking your point into account, I looked for this version of the martian problem and I concluded that this new problem is far easier that the original one, though it is quite interesting. Instead of just excluding a move due to a simple ko you can also chose to exclude a move due to a superko.
With this in mind I built the following solution:

White to play
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ------------
$$ | . . O O O |
$$ | O O O O O |
$$ | O O X X X |
$$ | . O X X X |
$$ | O X X X . |
$$ -------------[/go]
starting from this position white captures all black stones and continue until position:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ------------
$$ | O O O O O |
$$ | O O O O O |
$$ | O O O O O |
$$ | . O O O O |
$$ | O O O O O |
$$ -------------[/go]
here black captures all white stones and now you can build the following very simple martian position

Black to play
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ -------------
$$ | . . O O O |
$$ | O O O O O |
$$ | O O X X X |
$$ | X O X X X |
$$ | a X b X . |
$$ -------------[/go]
japonese rule : black must pass to avoid giving an additional prisoner
AGA rule : black must play "a" to save its stones and reach soon a seki
chinese rule : black must play "b" to reach an immediat seki because white cannot answer "a" due to superko

Note : for the original martian problem I searched for a solution with a molasses ko but I had to give up. The two solutions I found do not use this molasses ko scheme.
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Re: Martian problem

Post by Gérard TAILLE »

Bill Spight wrote:@Gérard TAILLE
jaeup wrote:Second approach: After White passes, black passes. The game temporarily stops but White can request the resumption of the game. Black will play first, but has nothing to do, and White will eventually capture all Black stones. Now, be careful that Black can keep playing as if almost a new game stared. Depending on the captured stone numbers and komi, Black may still have a chance to win. Anyway, this is a better result than the first approach.
Jaeup is right. :) Since I had already talked about reopening the play and you had not mentioned it, I thought you were asking about the result with hypothetical play, which is rather strange. ;)

Edit: Let me reconsider. Black took the ko and then each player passed in turn. Now White requires resumption of play, with Black to play first. Black passes. But the ko ban is still in effect, so White must pass, as well. The play is over.
Oops now I need really help because it is obvious I am not mastering japonese rule subtilities!
It seems that the right procedure for white is to requires resumption of play, with black to play, but after black passes it looks now unclear to know if ko ban is still in effect or not? What is the correct interpetation?
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Re: Martian problem

Post by jann »

jaeup wrote:Indeed there are some misunderstandings on the fate of the molasses ko in the Japanese rule. This shape has never been judged in the three Asian rules, and I am sure the rulemakers have never thought of this shape, but here is one basic principle of the Korean/Japanese rule worth remembering: the whole board repetition other than the simple ko recapture is not prohibited. The sequence repeating the whole board position includes passes, but the rule also does not prohibit it.

Thus, if it occurs in a major tournament game, I believe the likely result is a draw (or no result if the term matters). I have not talked with someone in Nihon Ki-in, but at least the Korean pros I have talked with (including those who wrote the Korean rule) agreed that a draw is the proper result for this shape. (Thinking of the way the Chinese rule has been applied in reality, I think they will also rule it a draw.)

The situation can be quite complicated in that until almost the last moment, the players have no reason to pass, and the whole board does not repeat. Unless the rule allows the players to "anticipate the whole board repetition and stop the game", due to the molasses sequence, the game may continue for 24 hours until :D the draw finally occurs.
I'm not sure it's this simple. Japanese rules only allow resuming a game with the opponent's move, so one side (who is interested in this) may omit the molasses move and pass instead after the opponent's pass (late when no other plays). So whether the repetition necessarily infinite depends on hypothetical play and status?
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Re: Martian problem

Post by jann »

Gérard TAILLE wrote:but after black passes it looks now unclear to know if ko ban is still in effect or not?
AFAIK all non-superko rules in use today allow ko recapture after pass - only immediate ko recapture is prohibited.
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Re: Martian problem

Post by Gérard TAILLE »

jann wrote:
Gérard TAILLE wrote:but after black passes it looks now unclear to know if ko ban is still in effect or not?
AFAIK all non-superko rules in use today allow ko recapture after pass - only immediate ko recapture is prohibited.

Jann, during the course of a game I have the same interpretation of the article (I hope I caught the right rule!)

Article 6. Ko
A shape in which the players can alternately capture and recapture one opposing stone is called a "ko." A player whose stone has been captured in a ko cannot recapture in that ko on the next move.


but the point here concerns the resumption of the game. The corresponding article is the following:

Article 9. End of the game
1. When a player passes his move and his opponent passes in succession, the game stops.
2. After stopping, the game ends through confirmation and agreement by the two players about the life and death of stones and territory. This is called "the end of the game."
3. If a player requests resumption of a stopped game, his opponent must oblige and has the right to play first.


and for me there is an ambiguity in the wording "his opponent must oblige and has the right to play first".
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X|
$$ | X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X|
$$ | X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X|
$$ | X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X|
$$ | X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X|
$$ | X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X|
$$ | X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X|
$$ | X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X|
$$ | X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X|
$$ | X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X|
$$ | X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X|
$$ | X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X|
$$ | X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X .|
$$ | X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X|
$$ | X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X O|
$$ | X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X O 1|
$$ | X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X O O|
$$ | X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X O O .|
$$ | X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X O . O|
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]
After :b1: , pass, pass how can we resume the play when white call for a resumption of the game ?
It is written that the opponent (black) has the right to play first. Here is the point. A right is not an obligation and black may decide to let white moving first and in this case the ko remains active!
In the other hand if black were "obliged" to play she will be forced to pass and the ko will no more be active.
Great difference isn't it?
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Re: Martian problem

Post by jann »

B has the right to move first in resumption. He may pass this move. In any case any potential later move is not recapturing in the ko on the NEXT move (ie. after the original ko capture). This would be true even if W had the first move in resumption because of the two intervening passes.

This kind of problem (no ko recapture unless the board changed) is only characteristic for most superko variants.
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Re: Martian problem

Post by Gérard TAILLE »

jann wrote:B has the right to move first in resumption. He may pass this move. In any case any potential later move is not recapturing in the ko on the NEXT move (ie. after the original ko capture). This would be true even if W had the first move in resumption because of the two intervening passes.

This kind of problem (no ko recapture unless the board changed) is only characteristic for most superko variants.
That sounds like a good and fair conclusion. White is then able to retake the ko with a great chance of winning the game.

BTW, coming back to molasses ko in japonese rule:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -----------------------
$$ | . X O . O O X O . O |
$$ | X X O O O O X O . O |
$$ | . X X O O O X X O O |
$$ | X X O O O X X O 1 O |
$$ | O O O . O X . X O O |
$$ | X X O O O X X O O X |
$$ | . X X X O O O X X X |
$$ | X X X X X O O X . X |
$$ | X . X . X X O O X . |
$$ | X X . X X X X O X X |
$$ -----------------------[/go]
My undertanding is now the following : after black :b1: , white passes, black cannot pass whithout losing her stones in the upper right corner. Black is forced to continue the game and, because the situation is the same for white, this is an infinite loop and a no result game.
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Re: Martian problem

Post by jann »

Gérard TAILLE wrote:My undertanding is now the following : after black :b1: , white passes, black cannot pass whithout losing her stones in the upper right corner. Black is forced to continue the game
This is what I referred to above. Black may pass because - even if W resumes the game - B will move first, so can still play in the molasses ko to be safe. The question seems to be the status in hypothetical play (anti-seki?).
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Re: Martian problem

Post by Gérard TAILLE »

jann wrote:
Gérard TAILLE wrote:My undertanding is now the following : after black :b1: , white passes, black cannot pass whithout losing her stones in the upper right corner. Black is forced to continue the game
This is what I referred to above. Black may pass because - even if W resumes the game - B will move first, so can still play in the molasses ko to be safe. The question seems to be the status in hypothetical play (anti-seki?).
May be I missed something but my understanding for hypothetical play is the following:
1) white to play : white takes the ko and kill the black group in the upper right corner
2) black to play : if black tries to kill a white stone she will here again lose her black upper right corner
As a conclusion black upper right group is dead and white upper right group is alive => no anti seki, black group is dead.
Where am I wrong?
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Re: Martian problem

Post by jann »

My comment was about resumption, I'm not sure of hypothetical play and status myself. B going first may be able to show an infinite repetition in hypothetical play, which may or may not amount to something (capturing two white stones may not "enable" anything - or does it? - so those may be dead).
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Re: Martian problem

Post by Bill Spight »

Gérard TAILLE wrote:
jann wrote:
Gérard TAILLE wrote:but after black passes it looks now unclear to know if ko ban is still in effect or not?
AFAIK all non-superko rules in use today allow ko recapture after pass - only immediate ko recapture is prohibited.

Jann, during the course of a game I have the same interpretation of the article (I hope I caught the right rule!)

Article 6. Ko
A shape in which the players can alternately capture and recapture one opposing stone is called a "ko." A player whose stone has been captured in a ko cannot recapture in that ko on the next move.


but the point here concerns the resumption of the game. The corresponding article is the following:

Article 9. End of the game
1. When a player passes his move and his opponent passes in succession, the game stops.
2. After stopping, the game ends through confirmation and agreement by the two players about the life and death of stones and territory. This is called "the end of the game."
3. If a player requests resumption of a stopped game, his opponent must oblige and has the right to play first.


and for me there is an ambiguity in the wording "his opponent must oblige and has the right to play first".
These days the Japanese use the term, pass (パス). However, under Japanese (Nihon Kiin) rules a pass is not a play. To pass a player gives up her right to play. There is no ambiguity in this case. If White requests (requires) a resumption, Black can make a play by placing a stone on the board or Black can pass. Then White has the right to play.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X|
$$ | X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X|
$$ | X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X|
$$ | X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X|
$$ | X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X|
$$ | X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X|
$$ | X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X|
$$ | X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X|
$$ | X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X|
$$ | X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X|
$$ | X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X|
$$ | X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X|
$$ | X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X .|
$$ | X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X|
$$ | X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X O|
$$ | X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X O 1|
$$ | X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X O O|
$$ | X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X O O .|
$$ | X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X O . O|
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]
After :b1: , pass, pass how can we resume the play when white call for a resumption of the game ?
It is written that the opponent (black) has the right to play first. Here is the point. A right is not an obligation and black may decide to let white moving first and in this case the ko remains active!
In the other hand if black were "obliged" to play she will be forced to pass and the ko will no more be active.
Great difference isn't it?
Except the Japanese is not ambiguous. English translation:
"A player whose stone has been captured in a ko cannot recapture in that ko on the next move."

Japanese original: 劫を取られた方は、次の着手でその劫を取り返すことはできない。

Move in the translation stands for 着手 (chakushu) in the original. A pass is not a move under the Japanese rules.

So if Black takes a ko and then both players pass, and then play resumes with a Black pass, if White took the ko back it would be the next chakushu. White cannot do that. :)
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Re: Martian problem

Post by jann »

Hm. This would mean the big B chunk is uncapturable in actual play, resumption or not, which seem too big of a defect to be true (not to mention the paradox of dead stones that are uncapturable in actual play, if B would be smaller). Literal translations aside, are you sure Japanese pros would agree with this?
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