Martian problem

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Matti
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Re: Martian problem

Post by Matti »

Gérard TAILLE wrote:
Matti wrote: I think now I have a solution on 10*10 board.
Fantastic Matti.
I will be very happy to analyse it and appreciate your job!
If you prefer to let the other players search without knowing a solution, maybe we can exchange via private messages. It is up to you to decide.
If I send you my soluton, maybe you can send yours in exchange.
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Gérard TAILLE
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Re: Martian problem

Post by Gérard TAILLE »

Matti wrote:
Gérard TAILLE wrote:
Matti wrote: I think now I have a solution on 10*10 board.
Fantastic Matti.
I will be very happy to analyse it and appreciate your job!
If you prefer to let the other players search without knowing a solution, maybe we can exchange via private messages. It is up to you to decide.
If I send you my soluton, maybe you can send yours in exchange.
Of course yes.
What can I gain by keeping my work only for myself without anyone verfying my work and without anyone appreciating such work!
My view was only to let you the pleasure of resolving the problem by yourself.
After almost one month, unless somebody tells us she is still searching, I will give my solutions on this forum.
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Gérard TAILLE
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Re: Martian problem

Post by Gérard TAILLE »

Matti,
BTW a searched solutions only on goban of odd dimension (typically 9, 11 or 13).
Reviewing my solution one of them seems to fit easily in a 10x10 goban. I will just take some more time to verify in detail.
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Gérard TAILLE
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Re: Martian problem

Post by Gérard TAILLE »

White to play
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ -------------
$$ | . O X . . -
$$ | X X X . O -
$$ | X X O . . -
$$ | X O . O O -
$$ | X X . O . -
$$ -------------[/go]
Here is a position I quite like, witch detects if the martian plays under chinese PSK rule.
In other words the best move a chinese PSK player must play, is a bad move for a japonese player or an AGA SSK player (at least I hope so !)

Unless somebody tells me she wish continue to search the original martian problem without knowing a solution, I will give you one of my solutions (on a 11x11 goban) next week, i.e. one month after my first post.

Good search!
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Matti
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Re: Martian problem

Post by Matti »

I first sent this solution as personal message to Gérard TAILLE. I sent it here for further discussion.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -----------------------
$$ | O O b a X O . X X . |
$$ | . O O X X O O O O X |
$$ | O . O X . X X X O . |
$$ | . c O X X . X X O O |
$$ | O O O O O X . X X X |
$$ | O X X X O X X X . . |
$$ | X X O X O O X O X X |
$$ | X . O X X X O O O O |
$$ | . O . X O O . O . X |
$$ | O . X X X O . O X . |
$$ -----------------------[/go]
Black plays a with japanese rules, b with SSK rules and c with PSK rules.
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Matti
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Re: Martian problem

Post by Matti »

Matti wrote:I first sent this solution as personal message to Gérard TAILLE. I sent it here for further discussion.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -----------------------
$$ | O O b a X O . X X . |
$$ | . O O X X O O O O X |
$$ | O . O X . X X X O . |
$$ | . c O X X . X X O O |
$$ | O O O O O X . X X X |
$$ | O X X X O X X X . . |
$$ | X X O X O O X O X X |
$$ | X . O X X X O O O O |
$$ | . O . X O O . O . X |
$$ | O . X X X O . O X . |
$$ -----------------------[/go]
Black plays a with japanese rules, b with SSK rules and c with PSK rules.
I discovered a flaw in the position, Here is the corrected one:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -----------------------
$$ | O O b a X O . X X . |
$$ | . O O X X O O O O X |
$$ | O . O X . X X X O . |
$$ | . c O X X . X X O O |
$$ | O O O O O X . X X X |
$$ | X X X X O X X X . . |
$$ | X O O X O O X O X X |
$$ | X . . X X X O O O O |
$$ | . O O X O O . O . X |
$$ | O . X X X O . O X . |
$$ -----------------------[/go]
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Gérard TAILLE
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Re: Martian problem

Post by Gérard TAILLE »

Matti wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -----------------------
$$ | O O b a X O . X X . |
$$ | . O O X X O O O O X |
$$ | O . O X . X X X O . |
$$ | . c O X X . X X O O |
$$ | O O O O O X . X X X |
$$ | X X X X O X X X . . |
$$ | X O O X O O X O X X |
$$ | X . . X X X O O O O |
$$ | . O O X O O . O . X |
$$ | O . X X X O . O X . |
$$ -----------------------[/go]
Interesting position but I have difficulties to catch the point
With japonese rules, because black looks like the komonster, it seems to me thet the stupid :b1: at "b" is also a best move.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -----------------------
$$ | O O 1 2 X O . X X . |
$$ | . O O X X O O O O X |
$$ | O . O X . X X X O . |
$$ | . c O X X . X X O O |
$$ | O O O O O X . X X X |
$$ | X X X X O X X X 6 7 |
$$ | X O O X O O X O X X |
$$ | X 9 . X X X O O O O |
$$ | . O O X O O 3 O . X |
$$ | O . X X X O 4 O X . |
$$ -----------------------[/go]
:b5: at :b1:
:w8: at :w2:
and black seems able to win the ko
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Matti
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Re: Martian problem

Post by Matti »

Gérard TAILLE wrote:
Matti wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -----------------------
$$ | O O b a X O . X X . |
$$ | . O O X X O O O O X |
$$ | O . O X . X X X O . |
$$ | . c O X X . X X O O |
$$ | O O O O O X . X X X |
$$ | X X X X O X X X . . |
$$ | X O O X O O X O X X |
$$ | X . . X X X O O O O |
$$ | . O O X O O . O . X |
$$ | O . X X X O . O X . |
$$ -----------------------[/go]
Interesting position but I have difficulties to catch the point
With japonese rules, because black looks like the komonster, it seems to me thet the stupid :b1: at "b" is also a best move.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -----------------------
$$ | O O 1 2 X O . X X . |
$$ | . O O X X O O O O X |
$$ | O . O X . X X X O . |
$$ | . c O X X . X X O O |
$$ | O O O O O X . X X X |
$$ | X X X X O X X X 6 7 |
$$ | X O O X O O X O X X |
$$ | X 9 . X X X O O O O |
$$ | . O O X O O 3 O . X |
$$ | O . X X X O 4 O X . |
$$ -----------------------[/go]
:b5: at :b1:
:w8: at :w2:
and black seems able to win the ko
:b1: is not best.
You are right. Black can win the ko, but white has gained a prisoner :b3: . So black loses a point.
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Gérard TAILLE
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Re: Martian problem

Post by Gérard TAILLE »

Matti wrote:
Gérard TAILLE wrote:
Matti wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -----------------------
$$ | O O b a X O . X X . |
$$ | . O O X X O O O O X |
$$ | O . O X . X X X O . |
$$ | . c O X X . X X O O |
$$ | O O O O O X . X X X |
$$ | X X X X O X X X . . |
$$ | X O O X O O X O X X |
$$ | X . . X X X O O O O |
$$ | . O O X O O . O . X |
$$ | O . X X X O . O X . |
$$ -----------------------[/go]
Interesting position but I have difficulties to catch the point
With japonese rules, because black looks like the komonster, it seems to me thet the stupid :b1: at "b" is also a best move.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -----------------------
$$ | O O 1 2 X O . X X . |
$$ | . O O X X O O O O X |
$$ | O . O X . X X X O . |
$$ | . c O X X . X X O O |
$$ | O O O O O X . X X X |
$$ | X X X X O X X X 6 7 |
$$ | X O O X O O X O X X |
$$ | X 9 . X X X O O O O |
$$ | . O O X O O 3 O . X |
$$ | O . X X X O 4 O X . |
$$ -----------------------[/go]
:b5: at :b1:
:w8: at :w2:
and black seems able to win the ko
:b1: is not best.
You are right. Black can win the ko, but white has gained a prisoner :b7:. So black loses a point.
If black wins the ko the number of black and white prisonners are egal aren't they?
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Matti
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Re: Martian problem

Post by Matti »

Matti wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -----------------------
$$ | O O b a X O . X X . |
$$ | . O O X X O O O O X |
$$ | O . O X . X X X O . |
$$ | . c O X X . X X O O |
$$ | O O O O O X . X X X |
$$ | X X X X O X X X . . |
$$ | X O O X O O X O X X |
$$ | X . . X X X O O O O |
$$ | . O O X O O . O . X |
$$ | O . X X X O . O X . |
$$ -----------------------[/go]
Gérard TAILLE wrote:Interesting position but I have difficulties to catch the point
With japonese rules, because black looks like the komonster, it seems to me thet the stupid :b1: at "b" is also a best move.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -----------------------
$$ | O O 1 2 X O . X X . |
$$ | . O O X X O O O O X |
$$ | O . O X . X X X O . |
$$ | . c O X X . X X O O |
$$ | O O O O O X . X X X |
$$ | X X X X O X X X 6 7 |
$$ | X O O X O O X O X X |
$$ | X 9 . X X X O O O O |
$$ | . O O X O O 3 O . X |
$$ | O . X X X O 4 O X . |
$$ -----------------------[/go]
:b5: at :b1:
:w8: at :w2:
and black seems able to win the ko
Matti wrote: :b1: is not best.
You are right. Black can win the ko, but white has gained a prisoner :b7:. So black loses a point.
Gérard TAILLE wrote:
If black wins the ko the number of black and white prisonners are egal aren't they?
The prisoners are equal, but :b7: has filled a point of territory, while :w4: has not-
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Gérard TAILLE
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Re: Martian problem

Post by Gérard TAILLE »

Matti wrote:
The prisoners are equal, but :b7: has filled a point of territory, while :w4: has not-
yes :b7: fills a point of territory but it is only an answer to :w6: which gives one prisoner.
For me I see the same number of prisoners in the ko place, and no impact in the rest of the board.
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Pio2001
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Re: Martian problem

Post by Pio2001 »

Hi Gérard,
Matti is right :
Since eyes in seki don't count, playing a ko threat inside a seki is a clever way to sort out the japanese rule : it's free in chinese or AGA rules (I loose one stone, my opponent looses one point, like with an ordinary ko threat), but it costs one point in japanese rule (I loose one stone, but my opponent's answer is neutral since she plays inside a seki) !
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Gérard TAILLE
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Re: Martian problem

Post by Gérard TAILLE »

Pio2001 wrote:Hi Gérard,
Matti is right :
Since eyes in seki don't count, playing a ko threat inside a seki is a clever way to sort out the japanese rule : it's free in chinese or AGA rules (I loose one stone, my opponent looses one point, like with an ordinary ko threat), but it costs one point in japanese rule (I loose one stone, but my opponent's answer is neutral since she plays inside a seki) !
Thank you Guillaume, now I see the point!
Move "a" in japonese rule is for me the only correct move
I can now begin to analyse PSK and SSK scenarios
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Gérard TAILLE
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Re: Martian problem

Post by Gérard TAILLE »

Matti,

I am now OK for japonese rule. I really appreciate your idea on this point!

It remains to analyse PSK and SSK rule.
I see the following sequence
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -----------------------
$$ | O O 2 3 X O . X X . |
$$ | . O O X X O O O O X |
$$ | O . O X . X X X O . |
$$ | 6 1 O X X . X X O O |
$$ | O O O O O X . X X X |
$$ | X X X X O X X X 5 . |
$$ | X O O X O O X O X X |
$$ | X . . X X X O O O O |
$$ | . O O X O O 4 O . X |
$$ | O . X X X O . O X . |
$$ -----------------------[/go]
and now, my feeling is that each palyer has to pass and this variation seems the best one either for SSK and PSK rule.
Can you explain where I am wrong?
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Re: Martian problem

Post by Matti »

Gérard TAILLE wrote:Matti,

I am now OK for japonese rule. I really appreciate your idea on this point!

It remains to analyse PSK and SSK rule.
I answered inside the hidden part.
I see the following sequence
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -----------------------
$$ | O O 2 3 X O . X X . |
$$ | . O O X X O O O O X |
$$ | O . O X . X X X O . |
$$ | 6 1 O X X . X X O O |
$$ | O O O O O X . X X X |
$$ | X X X X O X X X 5 . |
$$ | X O O X O O X O X X |
$$ | X . . X X X O O O O |
$$ | . O O X O O 4 O . X |
$$ | O . X X X O . O X . |
$$ -----------------------[/go]
and now, my feeling is that each palyer has to pass and this variation seems the best one either for SSK and PSK rule.
Can you explain where I am wrong?
Your sequence is best for PSK. For SSK the best sequence is below.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -----------------------
$$ | O O 1 2 X O . X X . |
$$ | . O O X X O O O O X |
$$ | O . O X . X X X O . |
$$ | . c O X X . X X O O |
$$ | O O O O O X . X X X |
$$ | X X X X O X X X 6 7 |
$$ | X O O X O O X O X X |
$$ | X 9 . X X X O O O O |
$$ | . O O X O O 3 O . X |
$$ | O . X X X O 4 O X . |
$$ -----------------------[/go]
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