Thermography

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Bill Spight
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Re: Thermography

Post by Bill Spight »

RobertJasiek wrote:
Bill Spight wrote:{Other than when :b1: is a ko threat} we may consider the sequence, :b1: - :w2: - :b3:, as a unit.
We may do so because it is a 'traversal sequence'. (I have not checked if CGT reversal applies, which might be an alternative reason.)
Gérard TAILLE wrote:
Bill Spight wrote:It is a CGT reversal, because the position after :b1: - :w2: is equal to the original. We can see that with a difference game. :)


I am not sure to understand Bill.
Don't you proof position after :b1: - :w2: is not equal to the original due to the color of the mast?
They are equal as combinatorial games, not as ko threats. Thermography has been extended beyond combinatorial games to kos and superkos.
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Re: Thermography

Post by Gérard TAILLE »

What about this well known position?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------
$$ | . O X X . . .
$$ | X X O X . . .
$$ | X X O X . . .
$$ | O O O . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . .[/go]
To simplify the problem assume area counting.
How do you draw the thermograph? What miai value? How do you show that white cannot avoid playing at temperature 0 in order to gain some more area?
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Re: Thermography

Post by Bill Spight »

Gérard TAILLE wrote:What about this well known position?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------
$$ | . O X X . . .
$$ | X X O X . . .
$$ | X X O X . . .
$$ | O O O . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . .[/go]
To simplify the problem assume area counting.
How do you draw the thermograph? What miai value? How do you show that white cannot avoid playing at temperature 0 in order to gain some more area?
See viewtopic.php?t=11301

Also viewtopic.php?t=12327&p=194948&#p194948 and the next four notes.

Also viewtopic.php?p=246125#p246125

You may also be interested in the discussion between Robert and me here and thereabouts. viewtopic.php?p=225084#p225084 :)
The Adkins Principle:
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Re: Thermography

Post by Bill Spight »

Here is an sgf file for Three-Points-Without-Capturing, assuming no ko threats. :)



Here is the game tree: {-3|-3||-2}. This is a standoff, as neither player wishes to play first. In CGT this reduces to { |-2}. That is, White to play moves to a local score of -2. In go terms that is equivalent to filling your own territory. If filling your own territory costs one point, you had one more point to start with. { |-2} = -3. The fact that go players came up with the same value is very interesting, isn't it? :cool:

BTW, in CGT the dame when Black plays first is significant. {-3|-2} = -2½. You get a similar effect with rules that penalize Black one point for passing first, but not White. Then the first pass is worth {-1|0} = -½ in CGT. :)

Let's try to construct the thermograph for this position.
sanmoku 999.png
sanmoku 999.png (2.15 KiB) Viewed 24568 times
The left scaffold is to the right of the right scaffold at or above temperature 0. This indicates a standoff. Neither player will wish to play first. All we can say at this point is that the score of the position lies between -2 and -3, inclusive. CGT, as we have seen, evaluates this game as -3. The Japanese 1989 rules evaluate it as -2, by forcing White to play at temperature 0 to avoid a seki. Before that, as the name indicates, Japanese rules evaluated this as -3 at the end of play. (The ko threat situation is significant, OC.) The fact that the left scaffold is vertical at temperature 0 cannot be seen, as it is inclined above temperature 0.

To handle such games Berlekamp extended thermography downward to temperature -1, which he called subterranean thermography. Below temperature 0 the vertical blue scaffold shows up.
sanmoku888.png
sanmoku888.png (2.86 KiB) Viewed 24568 times
Not only does the vertical blue line show up, the two scaffolds of the thermograph meet at a local score of -3. The mast rises vertically from that point. :)
sanmoku000.png
sanmoku000.png (2.36 KiB) Viewed 24568 times
At temperature -1 we have a tax of -1 for each play. In go that means that each stone played is worth 1 point. However, it is not exactly the same as stone counting. With stone counting this position would be worth 0, not -3. :)

Anyway, subterranean thermography gives us the correct CGT mast for Three-Points-Without-Capturing with no ko threats. :cool:
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Re: Thermography

Post by Gérard TAILLE »

Bill Spight wrote: To handle such games Berlekamp extended thermography downward to temperature -1, which he called subterranean thermography. Below temperature 0 the vertical blue scaffold shows up.
The attachment sanmoku888.png is no longer available
Not only does the vertical blue line show up, the two scaffolds of the thermograph meet at a local score of -3. The mast rises vertically from that point. :)
The attachment sanmoku000.png is no longer available
At temperature -1 we have a tax of -1 for each play. In go that means that each stone played is worth 1 point. However, it is not exactly the same as stone counting. With stone counting this position would be worth 0, not -3. :)

Anyway, subterranean thermography gives us the correct CGT mast for Three-Points-Without-Capturing with no ko threats. :cool:
First of all I suggest to take only area counting to avoid discussing japonese rule because it is not my point.

Maybe it is still clearer to draw the thermograph even under temperature = -1
t.png
t.png (7.29 KiB) Viewed 24543 times
But I see a problem. As soon as you take a tax < 0 you change the rule of the game.
Imagine you are playing a game with tax = -100. The game looks like a go game in the first part of the game but the goal being to get the last move the strategy will be clearly different as the game proceeds.

Just a very small example:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B White to play
$$ ---------------------
$$ | . b . a O O . O . |
$$ | X . X X O O O O O |
$$ | X X X O X X X O . |
$$ | . X O O . . X O O |
$$ | X X O . . . X X X |
$$ | O O O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------[/go]
with tax = -3 black "b" is better than black "a" isn't it?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------
$$ | . O X X . . .
$$ | X X O X . . .
$$ | X X O X . . .
$$ | O O O . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . .[/go]
My problem was to find the miai value (-3) by thermography but OC without changing the rule (I assume chinese rule in which the result is quite easy to calculate).
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Re: Thermography

Post by Bill Spight »

Gérard TAILLE wrote:First of all I suggest to take only area counting to avoid discussing japonese rule because it is not my point.
Well, the Japanese rules are relevant.
Gérard TAILLE wrote:To simplify the problem assume area counting.
How do you draw the thermograph? What miai value? How do you show that white cannot avoid playing at temperature 0 in order to gain some more area?
(Emphasis mine.)

The Japanese '89 rules require White to play at temperature 0 to avoid a ruling of seki. That's why this position is worth only -2 under them.
Maybe is still clearer to draw the thermograph even under temperature = -1
t.png
But then { |-2} becomes worth -4 at temperature -2.
But I see a problem. As soon as you take a tax < 0 you change the rule of the game.
The problems come, as with { |-2}, with a tax < -1.
Imagine you are playing a game with tax = -100. The game looks like a go game in the first part of the game but the goal being to get the last move the strategy will be clearly different as the game proceeds.
How much are prisoners worth? If they are also worth 100 points then the strategy changes little. If they are worth 0, then the strategy changes a lot, even with no tax. See https://senseis.xmp.net/?NoPassGo for a game where the goal is to get the last move and prisoners count 0. It's strategy will be very similar to the one where each stone played is worth 100 points but each prisoner is worth only 1 point.
Just a very small example:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B White to play
$$ ---------------------
$$ | . b . a O O . O . |
$$ | X . X X O O O O O |
$$ | X X X O X X X O . |
$$ | . X O O . . X O O |
$$ | X X O . . . X X X |
$$ | O O O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------[/go]
with tax = -3 black "b" is better than black "a" isn't it?
Yes, if prisoners count only 1 point. :)
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------
$$ | . O X X . . .
$$ | X X O X . . .
$$ | X X O X . . .
$$ | O O O . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . .[/go]
My problem was to find the miai value (-3) by thermography but OC without changing the rule (I assume chinese rule in which the result is quite easy to calculate).
Well, the only problem is the Japanese '89 rules.
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.
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Re: Thermography

Post by Gérard TAILLE »

Bill Spight wrote:
Gérard TAILLE wrote:First of all I suggest to take only area counting to avoid discussing japonese rule because it is not my point.
Well, the Japanese rules are relevant.
Gérard TAILLE wrote:To simplify the problem assume area counting.
How do you draw the thermograph? What miai value? How do you show that white cannot avoid playing at temperature 0 in order to gain some more area?
(Emphasis mine.)

The Japanese '89 rules require White to play at temperature 0 to avoid a ruling of seki. That's why this position is worth only -2 under them.
Maybe is still clearer to draw the thermograph even under temperature = -1
t.png
But then { |-2} becomes worth -4 at temperature -2.
But I see a problem. As soon as you take a tax < 0 you change the rule of the game.
The problems come, as with { |-2}, with a tax < -1.
Imagine you are playing a game with tax = -100. The game looks like a go game in the first part of the game but the goal being to get the last move the strategy will be clearly different as the game proceeds.
How much are prisoners worth? If they are also worth 100 points then the strategy changes little. If they are worth 0, then the strategy changes a lot, even with no tax. See https://senseis.xmp.net/?NoPassGo for a game where the goal is to get the last move and prisoners count 0. It's strategy will be very similar to the one where each stone played is worth 100 points but each prisoner is worth only 1 point.
Just a very small example:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B White to play
$$ ---------------------
$$ | . b . a O O . O . |
$$ | X . X X O O O O O |
$$ | X X X O X X X O . |
$$ | . X O O . . X O O |
$$ | X X O . . . X X X |
$$ | O O O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------[/go]
with tax = -3 black "b" is better than black "a" isn't it?
Yes, if prisoners count only 1 point. :)
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------
$$ | . O X X . . .
$$ | X X O X . . .
$$ | X X O X . . .
$$ | O O O . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . .[/go]
My problem was to find the miai value (-3) by thermography but OC without changing the rule (I assume chinese rule in which the result is quite easy to calculate).
Well, the only problem is the Japanese '89 rules.
OK Bill let's take Japanese '89 rules.
You rose the problem of the value of prisoner. Why do you to change its value? When you use a positive tax, say tax = 9, you keep the value 1 of the prisoner or you change to the value 9 ?
Do thermography imply to change the prisoner value if tax is negative but not if tax is positive?
Do you agree that the game rule change if you use negative tax?
BTW the game changes also if tax is positive but maybe only by stopping the game when neither player accepts to move with the level of the tax. If tax is negative the problem is different because here the players will continue to play but by changing their strategy.
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Re: Thermography

Post by Bill Spight »

Gérard TAILLE wrote:
Bill Spight wrote:
Gérard TAILLE wrote:First of all I suggest to take only area counting to avoid discussing japonese rule because it is not my point.
Well, the Japanese rules are relevant.
Gérard TAILLE wrote:To simplify the problem assume area counting.
How do you draw the thermograph? What miai value? How do you show that white cannot avoid playing at temperature 0 in order to gain some more area?
(Emphasis mine.)

The Japanese '89 rules require White to play at temperature 0 to avoid a ruling of seki. That's why this position is worth only -2 under them.
Maybe is still clearer to draw the thermograph even under temperature = -1
t.png
But then { |-2} becomes worth -4 at temperature -2.
But I see a problem. As soon as you take a tax < 0 you change the rule of the game.
The problems come, as with { |-2}, with a tax < -1.
Imagine you are playing a game with tax = -100. The game looks like a go game in the first part of the game but the goal being to get the last move the strategy will be clearly different as the game proceeds.
How much are prisoners worth? If they are also worth 100 points then the strategy changes little. If they are worth 0, then the strategy changes a lot, even with no tax. See https://senseis.xmp.net/?NoPassGo for a game where the goal is to get the last move and prisoners count 0. It's strategy will be very similar to the one where each stone played is worth 100 points but each prisoner is worth only 1 point.
Just a very small example:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B White to play
$$ ---------------------
$$ | . b . a O O . O . |
$$ | X . X X O O O O O |
$$ | X X X O X X X O . |
$$ | . X O O . . X O O |
$$ | X X O . . . X X X |
$$ | O O O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------[/go]
with tax = -3 black "b" is better than black "a" isn't it?
Yes, if prisoners count only 1 point. :)
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------
$$ | . O X X . . .
$$ | X X O X . . .
$$ | X X O X . . .
$$ | O O O . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . .[/go]
My problem was to find the miai value (-3) by thermography but OC without changing the rule (I assume chinese rule in which the result is quite easy to calculate).
Well, the only problem is the Japanese '89 rules.
OK Bill let's take Japanese '89 rules.
Let's not. They are an abomination.
You rose the problem of the value of prisoner. Why do you to change its value?
To illustrate that with a tax less than -1, the value of a prisoner affects the strategy.
When you use a positive tax, say tax = 9, you keep the value 1 of the prisoner or you change to the value 9 ?
Yes, because with a positive tax you want to reduce the value of a move for the purpose of finding the mean value of a game.
Do thermography imply to change the prisoner value if tax is negative but not if tax is positive?
A negative tax is used to find the actual value of a number, not it average value. A tax less than -1 finds the wrong CGT values for some numbers, such as { |-2} = -3.

My idea of changing the prisoner value with a tax less than -1 was to show how increasing it to the negative of the tax made the strategy close to regular go, while keeping it the same made a high negative tax change the strategy to approach no pass go in the limit.
Do you agree that the game rule change if you use negative tax?
It's a different game if the tax is less than -1, because the scores are different. In regular go the score for each prisoner is 1 point.
BTW the game changes also if tax is positive but maybe only by stopping the game when neither player accepts to move with the level of the tax.
It's a different game, but similar enough to shed light on the regular game. :)
If tax is negative the problem is different because here the players will continue to play but by changing their strategy.
A tax less than -1 changes the values of numbers (scores).
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— Winona Adkins

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Re: Thermography

Post by Gérard TAILLE »

Bill Spight wrote:
Gérard TAILLE wrote: OK Bill let's take Japanese '89 rules.
Let's not. They are an abomination.
Why are we talking about prisonners?
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Re: Thermography

Post by Bill Spight »

Gérard TAILLE wrote:
Bill Spight wrote:
Gérard TAILLE wrote: OK Bill let's take Japanese '89 rules.
Let's not. They are an abomination.
Why are we talking about prisonners?
Because each prisoner scores 1 point by traditional territory scoring. The current Japanese rules are not the only territory rules. There are Korean rules. Many go servers use their own territory rules. There are the Japanese '49 rules, there are Berlekamp's no pass go rules with prisoner return, there are Lasker-Maas rules, there are Spight rules, there are Ikeda rules, there are ancient Chinese and Japanese rules that used territory scoring with a group tax. The Japanese '89 rules are the only ones I know of that score this position as -2.

Besides, we have always been talking territory scores, right? :)
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— Winona Adkins

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Re: Thermography

Post by Gérard TAILLE »

Bill Spight wrote:
Gérard TAILLE wrote: When you use a positive tax, say tax = 9, you keep the value 1 of the prisoner or you change to the value 9 ?
Yes, because with a positive tax you want to reduce the value of a move for the purpose of finding the mean value of a game.
I am a little lost Bill.
When you answered "yes" it concerns "you keep the value 1 of the prisoner" or "you change to the value 9" ?
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Re: Thermography

Post by Bill Spight »

Gérard TAILLE wrote:
Bill Spight wrote:
Gérard TAILLE wrote: When you use a positive tax, say tax = 9, you keep the value 1 of the prisoner or you change to the value 9 ?
Yes, because with a positive tax you want to reduce the value of a move for the purpose of finding the mean value of a game.
I am a little lost Bill.
When you answered "yes" it concerns "you keep the value 1 of the prisoner" or "you change to the value 9" ?
Sorry. It has been, and still is, the practice in thermography to keep actual scores the same before applying the tax. I only suggested changing the value of a prisoner to illustrate a point about a tax < -1. I was not endorsing using such a tax.
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Re: Thermography

Post by Gérard TAILLE »

BTW Bill just a question about notation.
When you use slash notation like {5|2} how do you indicate it concerns a ko which can be connected say by black?
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Re: Thermography

Post by Bill Spight »

Gérard TAILLE wrote:BTW Bill just a question about notation.
When you use slash notation like {5|2} how do you indicate it concerns a ko which can be connected say by black?
Here is a good way to indicate a ko.

K = {1||K|0}
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— Winona Adkins

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Re: Thermography

Post by Gérard TAILLE »

Bill Spight wrote:
Gérard TAILLE wrote:BTW Bill just a question about notation.
When you use slash notation like {5|2} how do you indicate it concerns a ko which can be connected say by black?
Here is a good way to indicate a ko.

K = {1||K|0}
Thank you Bill
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