Nvidia RTX 30xx

[iopq]

The AMD RX 6800XT equals the Nvidia RTX 3080 in 1080p / 1440p gaming without streaming, ray tracing, DLSS and "only" has a few driver bugs. The RTX 3080 is slightly better in 4K gaming and much faster in Blender benchmarks, which are more relevant for deep learning. Therefore, as expected, go players should prefer Nvidia.

In Germany, AMD's new GPUs are essentially unavailable. Several, but not all, models of Nvidia's RTX 3070, and a few models of RTX 3090, are available for at least ca. €100 ~ 150 shortage surcharge, but especially the 3090 often only for a very short period per retailer.

RTX 3080 is still rare: the worst models (Zotac, Palit) are occasionally very shortly available in tiny numbers for that surcharge, a few other models from retailers behaving as scalpers (€200 ~ 500 surcharge), the best and most sought models (all Asus; MSI GX3) are still unavailable in the €100 ~ 150 surcharge range. Availability is very slightly improving and surcharges are slowly dropping but it will last at least one or two more months before prices might approach MSRPs. Even then, I presume that the best 3080 models will still be unavailable.

I expect the 3080 to be about twice as fast for inference because of its tensor cores. At least, my 2060 is twice as fast with them on than with them off.

[RobertJasiek]

Beware of RTX 3090 for €1300 at Ebay. Probably, such an offer is a fraud and the Ebay account hacked.

[RobertJasiek]

Today, I see Ryzen 5000 CPUs offered from German retailers for the first time. At ca. 235% the MSRP, which I thought was already greedy... Meanwhile, 3700X and 3900X are €40 above the level of October.

Yesterday, some unattractive model of RTX 3080 was available at €861 in small quantity for a few minutes as a preorder with waiting time 12 - 14 days from Saturn, which (together with MediaMarkt) is the largest German warehouse chain for electronics but whose online shop has a bad reputation in case of problems. Although still ca. €120 above MSRP, this indicates that the supply situation is very slowly improving; a few items find their way to endconsumers. However, RTX 3070 is at least about €160 above MSRP. Bad models of RTX 3090 are ca. €100 above MSRP, better models ca. €400 and the best models still unavailable most of the time.

One rumour says that Nvidia and AMD would be selling most chips / cards directly to miners but I doubt that because these cards do not have the best price per speed ratios.

[RobertJasiek]

Reports are densening. Apparently, RTX 3000 and especially 3080 is attractive for ethereum miners, Nvidia has sold $175M of RTX 3000 equalling 250,000 RTX 3080 (partly even before launch) and increased its YOY quarterly gaming revenue by +37%. Thus shortage for gamers is explained. Their demand, Corona demand, Corona supply chain and 7nm / 8nm production rate would be left as only minor factors. Just why can't Nvidia and AMD not admit the truth? Of course, their under-estimation of demand greatly contributed to the limited production.

[RobertJasiek]

RTX 3080 remains extremely hard to get. €200+ above MSRP is the norm. Cards €120 above MSRP are sold within minutes but only unattrative such cards become available. This situation for RTX 3090, 3070, 3060 TI and AMD's cards is almost as bad, although RTX 3060 TI has been available for €70 ~ €100 above MSRP during the first two days of its availability.

Asus RTX 3080 TUF Gaming 10G is one of the cards I am watching closely. The MSRP is said to be €711. At Asus's own webshop, prices varied from €709 to €740, sometimes changing several times per day. Then the price remained at €738. Now, the price remains at €758. Always unavailable. Then, I have had to learn that the so called Asus webshop is run by third party retailers, you know, those that typically sell at €200+ above MSRP. They have told me that I should only take prices seriously when cards are available. Hence, prices listed at manufacturers' (or retailers') webpages are fakes when cards are unavailable! Such prices are merely meant as creating an illusion of acceptable prices.

A few cards are coming in every week but almost all of them serve preorders placed around launch dates ca. three months ago. The literally few cards finding their way to regular customers are just alibis. Only huge miners or bots have had a realistic chance, unless you are willing to pay €200 above MSRP (plus much more for other currently over-priced hardware).

The question becomes whether one can buy RTX 3000 before RTX 4000 launches, and then everything repeats? Only Apple is happy, who is reported to buy 80% of all 5nm chips. Digging gold is easier than buying RTX 3000 at MSRP.

[RobertJasiek]

On January 4, I ordered and prepaid an RTX 3080 around MSRP from Saturn (which we have in Germany and is comparable to Microcenter in the USA) but had no luck. A week later, I called them, was told the card was out of stock and got reimbursement. The alternative of prepayment for being on a waiting list was a too high risk for my taste.

Meanwhile, US trade war has resulted in an 25% US import tariff for GPUs. I might not care but Asus has taken this chance to raise their GERMAN RTX 3000 prices by €100, apparently in an attempt to let Germans pay a good part for US customers. This is not the first OEM scalping incident.

Needless to say, currently RTX 3080 is unavailable in Germany even at scalping prices. Apparently, the mining boom eats them all. Because, you know, if we believed Nvidia, demand among gamers would be the only cause for scarcity.

I get it: build your own GPU!

[RobertJasiek]

Current market prices for RTX3000 are more than double the MSRPs because miners buy these GPUs and laptops nevertheless. Even old, used GPUs are similarly expensive. It is unknown whether Nvidia and AMD print money instead of selling most of their GPUs. With a new GPU, currently one can mine the equivalent of USD 5 to 9 per day so that a GPU pays for itself within 3 or 6 months, provided the cryptocurrency rates remain high long enough. Buying GPUs for the main purpose of mining is betting on the cryptocurrency rates.

For only-gamers, the entire GPU market is dead. Gamers without GPU yet need to either a) wait for the cryptocurrency boom to collapse or b) act as new miners themselves (paying more than twice the MSRP betting on the cryptocurrency rates).

If you already have a GPU, you might just use it most of the time for mining if you don't mind the impact on the PC components' durability.

For non-owners, the situation is very unfair because a) those lucky enough to get their GPUs early at reasonable prices have an advantage when needing less time to let the GPU pay for itself while the cryptocurrency boom has reached its peak (thus far), b) those living in countries with cheap energy have an advantage because their risk is lower, c) during Corona, not everybody can travel to the GPU factories to buy hundreds of GPUs directly (and possibly pay customs).

[iamaibeta]

Hi guys,

I am looking to build a rig with 2, maybe even 3, 3080s or 3090s to run LeelaZero/KataGo. However, when I tried stacking a 3090 and 3080, the 3090 on top just choked on hot air so much it thermal throttled ridiculously.

Does anyone here run 2x FE edition cards with the blow through fans and much more aggressive blower fan pushing hot air out of the case? Are the thermals acceptable? Can a FE 3080 on top sustain ~1850mhz?

I'm having trouble finding people with temperature data with such configurations.

Thank you

[RobertJasiek]

If you aircool, the cards need at least 1cm (better more) space each below them, a case /setting with good airflow and sufficient fans in a meaningful configuration. For a closed case, this means e.g. 3 input fans, at least 1 output fan, straight airflow and more / equal input pressure than output pressure. However, for 3 RTX 3000 cards, there are no suitable mainboards for aircooling, unless you use riser cables. So use an open configuration with extra fans or water cooling. Also get a suitable mainboard with fast enough PCI slots, see earlier in this thread, unless you get special mining boards.

If you put the (especially aircooled) cards directly next to each other, you are doing it wrong!

For 2 aircooled Nvidia FE cards, put the RTX 3090 below onto a mainboard with 2 PCI 4.0 slots running at x8 speed at least 3 slots apart into a Meshify 2 XL (the only case with enough space below the lower (the 3090) card). If you put the 3090 above or put 2x3090, you need a mainboard with 2 PCI 4.0 slots running at x8 speed at least 4 (!) slots apart (see earlier in this thread).

EDITs

[iamaibeta]

I had 3090 and 3080 next to each other. There was definitely a cm of space but the temp was just out of control. It was in a big Lian Li o11d-xl case too with 6 intake fans and 4 exhaust fans.

I am thinking my best bet is getting a MB that can allow me to get more space between two cards and give up on 3/4 cards. But before I do that, does NVLink help with performance?

[RobertJasiek]

6 intake fans and 4 exhaust fans? The number of fans (if enough minimum number and air volume) is of low importance. What matters is airflow. If you crossfire air, you reduce airflow. Lian Li has some cases with special fan positions, for which I have not seen enough reviews to know for sure. However, if you have, say, 3 intake on a side and 3 on the bottom, chances are great that you crossfire air.

Better have one straight direction of intake air, of which enough must go directly to the GPUs.

Ok, it is quite possible that 1cm space might not be enough and 2cm would be better for sure.

Another aspect: how about undervolting the GPUs? If have seen reports than one can reduce ca. 70 - 80W per GPU while keeping its speed constant.

Oh, and the intake fans must not be blocked by a radiator or disk chassis.

[iamaibeta]

I'm using the Lian-Li O11D-XL. The orientations are kind of weird.

3 intakes at bottom blowing directly on the GPU (sadly only on bottom GPU)

3 intakes on side

3 exhausts on top

1 exhaust on the back

The orientations of the fans really aren't ideal since they aren't helping to push hot air out the back of the PCI slots.

I might just need a new case but as it stands, I'm probably looking at getting something like a MB with 4x 8+xPCI-e slots so I could space two cards far enough to breathe.

I just don't know if NVLink brings some performance benefit. If it does, I might just end up spending a little more and get someone to build a water cooled rig.

PS: I am not entirely insane. I do run fluid simulations for O&G wells, among other things, that require a lot of computational power.

[RobertJasiek]

Before buying a new case, you might try this: deactivate the bottom fans, slow down the 3 top exhaust fans (and / or possibly deactivate the right-most top exhaust fan) so that intake pressure is higher than output pressure. Verify that still a good amount of air flows below the lower GPU.

NVLink is superfluous for KataGo but I cannot know if NVLink helps for mining.

If you should go for 4 GPUs, they should be watercooled, which is a science / requires good assembly.

[iamaibeta]

The 4 card dream is dead. I looked into it and, without resorting to a mining rig, custom water cooling loop is all but necessary and that drives the cost of the system to pretty close to 20k, if not more, if I wanted warranty of some kind from a custom builder.

I am thinking the most realistic setup is putting 2x 3090 in a MB with 4 PCIe slots... the idea is to use slot 1 and 3 so there is like an inch and half of space between the two cards. No NVlink but apparently that doesn't matter so okay.

Some of my work workloads would like NVlink but I'm spending my own money so whatever.

3090 cards are super hard to find. I think for now, I am just going to get a 4 slot MB and just run 3090 and 3080 in parallel. Eventually, depending on availability, I'm hoping 2x 3080ti (assuming KataGo doesn't need VRAM) will be the sweet spot.

This is assuming I could even find MBs with 4 slots. I understand miners are scooping those up too.

[RobertJasiek]

IIUC, your 3090 is 2 slots thick. So if you put two cards 3 normal PCIe slots distance, your free space is 2.08cm.

You mention a board with 4 PCIe slots using slots 1 and 3. Do you envision a board with ordinary layout? Then your free space is 0cm (non-existent). Or do you consider a workstation board for which slots 1 and 3 are 3 ordinary slot distances apart for 2.08cm free space? Why do you need a board with 4 PCIe slots?

If you do buy a new board, why not one with two fast PCIe slots with distance 4 slots? Too expensive board? Too little choice for cases with enough space below? Just curious. Since you have Nvidia FE, 2,08cm free space might be enough bit please report if indeed it will be:)

KataGo needs 3GB.