Young Korean pro Kim Eunji banned for 1 year for AI cheating

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Re: Young Korean pro Kim Eunji banned for 1 year for AI chea

Post by Bill Spight »

jlt wrote:The person you are at 13 is not the same as the person you are at 18. Give children the chance to become better adults instead of suffering all your life from the consequences of your actions at 13.
Certainly for most people moral development is not complete by age 13. We should help children to develop high moral standards, but not judge them harshly when they do not live up to them. Also, punishment is not as effective as reward, and the certainty of punishment is more effective than the severity of punishment.

Given that, it is probably appropriate to punish not only cheating but the appearance of cheating, so as to increase the certainty of punishing actual cheating. And if we are going to punish the appearance of cheating, then harsh punishment is inappropriate.
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Re: Young Korean pro Kim Eunji banned for 1 year for AI chea

Post by Kirby »

jlt wrote:The pro exam is a measure of go skill, not of maturity or morality.
A job interview for a software engineering company is also a measure of skill. That doesn't mean that once I get hired, I'm free to sell company IP for personal gain or do other stupid stuff. The job comes with responsibilities, as does being a pro.

It seems you don't really think that cheating with AI is that big of a deal if someone is a kid... I don't understand that perspective at all.

There are two choices:
* 13-year olds are old enough to take on the responsibilities of being pro;
* they're not mature enough, yet

In the pro world, we've accepted the former. If we opt for the latter, then that works, too. But it means that we shouldn't have young pros. Or they should be in their own category - "pros that haven't learned the responsibility that comes with the job, yet" or something.
Bill Spight wrote:Given that, it is probably appropriate to punish not only cheating but the appearance of cheating, so as to increase the certainty of punishing actual cheating. And if we are going to punish the appearance of cheating, then harsh punishment is inappropriate.
Why would you punish someone with the appearance of cheating, without evidence that they actually cheated? Appearing to cheat is not wrong - cheating is wrong.
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Re: Young Korean pro Kim Eunji banned for 1 year for AI chea

Post by jlt »

Kirby wrote:It seems you don't really think that cheating with AI is that big of a deal if someone is a kid
I didn't say that. I agree that cheating is wrong and should be punished. I think that a one-year ban is enough of a punishment for a kid. I would also be fine with a 2-year ban or perhaps a 3-year ban if such cases become more frequent, but not with a lifetime ban. In fact I would agree on a lifetime ban only for recidivists.
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Re: Young Korean pro Kim Eunji banned for 1 year for AI chea

Post by Kirby »

jlt wrote:
Kirby wrote:It seems you don't really think that cheating with AI is that big of a deal if someone is a kid
I didn't say that. I agree that cheating is wrong and should be punished. I think that a one-year ban is enough of a punishment for a kid. I would also be fine with a 2-year ban or perhaps a 3-year ban if such cases become more frequent, but not with a lifetime ban. In fact I would agree on a lifetime ban only for recidivists.
Just seems to me that this is the same as saying, "We're ok to have pros in our organization, who have used AI to cheat in cash-prize tournaments".
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Re: Young Korean pro Kim Eunji banned for 1 year for AI chea

Post by Bill Spight »

Kirby wrote:
Bill Spight wrote:Given that, it is probably appropriate to punish not only cheating but the appearance of cheating, so as to increase the certainty of punishing actual cheating. And if we are going to punish the appearance of cheating, then harsh punishment is inappropriate.
Why would you punish someone with the appearance of cheating, without evidence that they actually cheated? Appearing to cheat is not wrong - cheating is wrong.
This kind of thing is common, both in law and in other things. For instance, when drug use is criminalized, the possession of drug paraphernalia may also be criminalized, and excessive prescription of drugs may be considered a breach of professional ethics. You draw a wide enough fence around prohibited behavior so to prevent it or if it occurs you are able to punish the breach of propriety or ethics without having to prove that the prohibited behavior actually occurred. This way you increase the probability of punishing the behavior. You also reduce the suspicion that it occurs, which can be quite corrosive.
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Re: Young Korean pro Kim Eunji banned for 1 year for AI chea

Post by jlt »

@Kirby: yes, I think it's all right if the cheater has already been punished and returned the money that was unduly won. Tournament organizers should take appropriate measures so that cheating doesn't happen again by proctoring players more carefully, checking bags and toilets, etc.

In short I am in favor of giving people a second chance. It doesn't mean they can get a third chance.
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Re: Young Korean pro Kim Eunji banned for 1 year for AI chea

Post by John Fairbairn »

There are two choices:
* 13-year olds are old enough to take on the responsibilities of being pro;
* they're not mature enough, yet

In the pro world, we've accepted the former. If we opt for the latter, then that works, too. But it means that we shouldn't have young pros. Or they should be in their own category - "pros that haven't learned the responsibility that comes with the job, yet" or something.
This seems to me to be an ideal summary of the situation.

Now, on that basis, we look at the support for the view that 13-year-olds are mature enough to take on the responsibilities for being pro, we can cite various known behaviours and signs of maturity of this young group:

* They politely say "I was lucky" when they win and "I will try harder in future" when they lose. They may have a tear in private (but so can adults), and they don't rant and rave, have hysterics or tear their opponents' hair out. All of which is behaviour that can be seen in some teenage girls. (But as parents will vouch, this may actually be a sign of maturity of a different kind. The kids are being manipulative, trying to suss out how far they can go with being wilful.)

* They routinely don't spit in their opponents' eyes, don't kick them under the table, don't cough as the opponent decides to play, don't quote obscure rule interpretations, don't burp or fart. In short, they don't misbehave or act obnoxiously in order to get an advantage. Very occasionally there may be a genuine dispute, just as there can be in the adult game (e.g. triple ko occurs: shall we replay or toss a coin?). This is not misbehaviour. This sort of thing is the fault of rules or maladministration.

* They do not go and find a book to look up the next move in a rare joseki the opponent tosses at them. They do not phone a friend for advice. They do not look supplicatingly at a teacher or supporter for a clue as to how to proceed.

In other words, they know all about the whole range of normal, mature behaviour and society's views on cheating. They are mature (or mature enough), their peers have decided.

Yes, of course 13-year-olds will be a different person at 18. An 18-year-old will be a different person at 23 (e.g. he might be married with kids and so learned not to drive like a suicidal maniac). But the 23-year-old, priding himself on his mature outlook in caring for his wife and kids might go out for a night out with the lads, get CV and hug and kill grannie. If grannie survives, she might be a thoroughly mature 80-year-old, but she may also be a bit gaga and so leave her house to her cats instead of her son or daughter. And so on ad infinitum.

Age is not really relevant. What is relevant is your behaviour. That, at least, appears to be the view taken by professional go organisations (whose ethical principles you have to sign up to, by the way.) If you are deemed mature you are deemed to be able to take responsibility for your actions. If you take responsibility, you accept the same penalties as everyone else if you transgress.

You can certainly have a debate about how heavy penalties should be, and take the view that a light penalty is appropriate so that transgressors can have a second chance and learn from their mistakes. Most sports seem to have taken that line. But age of someone deemed "mature enough" shouldn't come into it. Sane penalties, light or heavy, for everyone is the fairest way.
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Re: Young Korean pro Kim Eunji banned for 1 year for AI chea

Post by Kirby »

jlt wrote: In short I am in favor of giving people a second chance. It doesn't mean they can get a third chance.
I'm also in favor of giving second chances - in amateur go. For professionals, I hold a higher standard. Sadly, if pro go organizations make decisions like this one, giving only a year off as punishment (which, by the way, is hardly a punishment - Lee Sedol took off a year awhile back and came back stronger than when he'd left), I'm afraid I can't hold that standard for much longer. The line between amateur and pro blurs further...
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Re: Young Korean pro Kim Eunji banned for 1 year for AI chea

Post by RobertJasiek »

"They [...] don't quote obscure rule interpretations [...] This sort of thing is the fault of rules or maladministration."

Obscure rule interpretations? Such as "Go was originally played with stone scoring so I won today's game"? Fault of the rules? Such as dame defining ordinary territory as void being in seki.

"professional go organisations (whose ethical principles you have to sign up to [...])"

What are those ethical principles to be signed by the various pro organisations?

"It doesn't mean they can get a third chance."

I have never like the US three strikes approach. It just contributes to filling US prisons. Usually, sentences should be forgiving. Only for extreme criminals (such as mass-murderers) clearly endangering human beings forever the sentence should be life-long prison.
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Re: Young Korean pro Kim Eunji banned for 1 year for AI chea

Post by SoDesuNe »

John Fairbairn wrote:Now, on that basis, we look at the support for the view that 13-year-olds are mature enough to take on the responsibilities for being pro, we can cite various known behaviours and signs of maturity of this young group: [...]
And then we have Magnus Carlsen, who at age 26 stormed out of a press conference after losing a game in the world championship. He was then what he is now: the best chess player in the world. Grouping works, statistically. It doesn't work when you talk about a single person.

Since the comparison to chess was already made: Go's big western cousin, who dealt with this kind of cheating way longer than go has, should provide ample data how to manage such situations - from the sport's perspective (ie gaining viewers and sponsors and thus players). Though I admit there might be less insights on how to maintain honour and keep up subjective projections on what being a professional should mean :p
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Re: Young Korean pro Kim Eunji banned for 1 year for AI chea

Post by Kirby »

Chess doesn't have the same cultural history and etiquette that go has. I don't think they can be compared directly here. It's like comparing a Japanese tea ceremony to beer pong.
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Re: Young Korean pro Kim Eunji banned for 1 year for AI chea

Post by Bill Spight »

A cheating story of perhaps some interest. :)

https://www.wired.com/story/stones-poke ... g-scandal/
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Re: Young Korean pro Kim Eunji banned for 1 year for AI chea

Post by SoDesuNe »

Kirby wrote:Chess doesn't have the same cultural history and etiquette that go has. I don't think they can be compared directly here. It's like comparing a Japanese tea ceremony to beer pong.
Cultural history and etiquette has nothing to do with cheating. But maybe we are talking about different things.

My take is: cheating will stay a problem in go and no amount of cultural history and etiquette will change that. So how do you deal with it in a way that the sport still attracts fans and sponsors and new players? Chess is not bad off despite facing the same challenges since years, so it might be a good bet to learn from chess' history.

Bill Spight's linked article is a really good read! Shows how difficult proving something is and how much is lost in the process. Might also hint at the vulnurability of closed systems (like the Stones with its live-streaming events). Legally it might be easier to say that everything is fine when the alternative would be facing multiple civil action suits for not caring enough about potential security breaches.
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Re: Young Korean pro Kim Eunji banned for 1 year for AI chea

Post by Kirby »

SoDesuNe wrote: Cultural history and etiquette has nothing to do with cheating.
If you don't see the relationship here, I guess I just have to agree to disagree. I am not alone in the standard I hold for professionals - Yeonwoo, for example, also advocated that Kim Eunji not be pro anymore (as well as numerous folks in the comments of her video on this topic). Anyway, it's become apparent to me that this is not a universal viewpoint - at least with folks here on L19. Maybe it's a difference in exposure to go culture in the West. Not really sure.
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Re: Young Korean pro Kim Eunji banned for 1 year for AI chea

Post by Bill Spight »

SoDesuNe wrote:
Kirby wrote:Chess doesn't have the same cultural history and etiquette that go has. I don't think they can be compared directly here. It's like comparing a Japanese tea ceremony to beer pong.
Cultural history and etiquette has nothing to do with cheating. But maybe we are talking about different things.
Maybe so, but culture and social factors do influence cheating. I don't know of any research about it, but I expect that online cheating is more rampant than FTF cheating, in no small part because of social factors.
SoDesuNe wrote:My take is: cheating will stay a problem in go and no amount of cultural history and etiquette will change that. So how do you deal with it in a way that the sport still attracts fans and sponsors and new players? Chess is not bad off despite facing the same challenges since years, so it might be a good bet to learn from chess' history.
One advantage chess had in recognizing cheating by using AI is that before the advent of strong neural networks the engines played rather differently from humans.
SoDesuNe wrote:Bill Spight's linked article is a really good read! Shows how difficult proving something is and how much is lost in the process. Might also hint at the vulnurability of closed systems (like the Stones with its live-streaming events). Legally it might be easier to say that everything is fine when the alternative would be facing multiple civil action suits for not caring enough about potential security breaches.
I was surprised at the outcome. I thought they had him dead to rights.

One thing that struck me was how much poker theory seems to have changed recently, and how rapidly top players have changed their strategies. I suppose that was spurred by strong poker programs, but maybe there have been some game theory breakthroughs, as well. That actually gives me hope for the advancement of go. :)
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