The Orient and Other PC Discussion

[simpkin]

BTW You do like having a go at me, don't you? (Jenny has several times said rude things about me on the BGA forum. We've never met.)

No, I don't. On the contrary. I have enormous amounts of respect for you and your knowledge, which I find extremely educational, useful and interesting (and which is, by and large, on subjects about which I know little). I have challenged your opinions in the past, and in this thread, because it is particularly unpleasant to see less knowledgeable and sometimes offensive remarks spouted by someone who is usually very well worth listening to.

I will answer the rest of your post with chapter and verse later, but I thought it was particularly important to make this point promptly. (I believe, by the way, that we have at least approximately met, at the European Pair Go Championship in 2005. You gave a very interesting talk.)

[richardamullens]

Please can we have an example - an actual, concrete example, not a "my aunt's dog's nurse's sister said" - of these "PC Wallahs" and their "pronouncements"?

Not things like the rubbish Javaness has spouted about "having to say vertically challenged instead of short", actual examples.

Well, we are no longer supposed to say "dwarf", "dwarves" (or I imagine "dwarfism") - I believe it is now "people of small stature" - though it is all right if Snow White is involved. Then, of course, there is "mongols" and "mongolism" where we now must use the term "Down syndrome".

So, yes, there are these damn busybodies who feel it is their prerogative to decide what others must do. In the case of Mongolism, you can certainly find the name of the person responsible for the name change with a little diligent searching.

As others have mentioned we get examples such as "spokesperson" to save feminists from becoming agitated by the use of spokesman when applied to a woman. Equally I am certain that there are people in local councils part of whose remit is to invent job titles when there are perfectly good words for the occupation already.

Anyway, I wonder if I am an unwitting victim of Simpkin's trolling ?

[Kirby]

...

You don't even bother to have an idea about what someone is writing before you're calling it rubbish. And then you keep going talking about scholarship... come on!

Hint: Re-read the posts by John Fairbairn and T Mark Hall about western rule, time keeping, tournament setup and whatsoever experts rulings concerning oriental practice. Then read Edward Said. You may end surprised.

Cheers,
Tapir

It seems to me that Henric was suggesting the possibility that two different people can have two different ideas of the connotation of a particular word. To me this seems to be quite rational.

Unfortunately, you missed the point as Edward Said was not at all writing about the meaning, connotations or usage of a particular word, but about a scholarship of the east which endowed its alumni with the right mindset to take up responsible positions in colonial administration. (Exceptions notwithstanding.)

The rest is granted. Meanings differ, usage is more important than the actual words. Even supposedly correct speech can be employed as a means of exclusion against some of the very same people whose discrimination it is supposed to reduce. (One classic: Against working class or foreign people who have not learned or do not care about the in-group language of academic leftist groups.)

I think we just have different ideas of what "the point" is. What I have been trying to reiterate in this discussion is that I believe that:
1.) People have different ideas of what is "OK".
2.) We cannot control the actions of others.
3.) Adjust your own actions to amend conflicts that you care about.

I do not see what is left to debate if we keep these ideas in mind.

[Monadology]

I on the other hand find Basil Fawlty a prime example of someone who never would care about PC.
A classic: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfl6Lu3xQW0

The interesting thing about "The Germans" (until Basil tires near the end of the German's sensitivity and performs the goose-step) is that Basil is actually quite concerned, in fact overly paranoid, about being 'PC.' However, his obsessiveness with suppressing the mention of the unpleasant/offensive subject of the Second World War in his compulsive mention of it (presumably due to the concussion he received).

I think there is something to this. In certain extremes of the paranoiac tendencies of 'tolerance' and 'political correctness' lead to the reappearance of the original offense within the context simply by virtue of its explicit suppression. This maintains the transmission of the stereotype culturally, albeit in the inverted form of guilt.

The trick is that, well, there is no trick. Shifts in language will occur naturally when the cultural context shifts (assuming they are not uniquely embedded in the old context like a certain used to refer to African-Americans in the United States). This not uncommonly requires using appropriately neutral or positive equivalents, but part of the absurdity of certain 'PC' word-substitutes lies in the fact that they are inorganic and hyper-conscious, which leads them to maintain the presence of the stereotype implicitly. Not to mention potential condescension in the mollycoddling of extreme forms of 'tolerance.'

Such extreme cases suffer from confirmation bias by their very nature, though. To characterize the liberal trend towards avoiding sexist, racist or other offensive terminology as being primarily paranoid in form is a gross exaggeration and inaccurate generalization. We simply accept and thus do not notice many of the more common sensical elements of the trend.

[ethanb]

Please can we have an example - an actual, concrete example, not a "my aunt's dog's nurse's sister said" - of these "PC Wallahs" and their "pronouncements"?

Not things like the rubbish Javaness has spouted about "having to say vertically challenged instead of short", actual examples.

Well, we are no longer supposed to say "dwarf", "dwarves" (or I imagine "dwarfism") - I believe it is now "people of small stature" - though it is all right if Snow White is involved. Then, of course, there is "mongols" and "mongolism" where we now must use the term "Down syndrome".

So, yes, there are these damn busybodies who feel it is their prerogative to decide what others must do. In the case of Mongolism, you can certainly find the name of the person responsible for the name change with a little diligent searching.

As others have mentioned we get examples such as "spokesperson" to save feminists from becoming agitated by the use of spokesman when applied to a woman. Equally I am certain that there are people in local councils part of whose remit is to invent job titles when there are perfectly good words for the occupation already.

Anyway, I wonder if I am an unwitting victim of Simpkin's trolling ?

I'm not really interested in participating more than I already have in this thread, but I just had to note that the examples you gave are particularly poor choices for your "cause."

"Dwarf" is most commonly used to refer to a short, stout, non-human creature whose ancestors and relatives (if not himself) mine for gems and hoard treasure. Perhaps getting their caves taken over by dragons or demons occasionally. They also make fine crafts, hoard money miserly and drive a hard bargain.

For your second one, who on earth EVER thought it would be a good idea to refer to people with an obvious disability with the same adjective as someone from another country? The first time I came across the term "Mongoloid" I think it was in one of H.P. Lovecraft's first published stories (he later apologized for the racism shown in his very early works, by the way) and it wasn't until years later that I realized he didn't mean someone from Mongolia! So by that, you say everyone from Mongolia has Down's? Or at least everyone with Down's is from Mongolia? Gee, why would people ever find that offensive?

I don't think that most people have problems with "spokesman" applied to an abstract position - it's only when it is applied to someone of a different gender that it makes sense to distinguish. "She is the spokesman" - really? Isn't she the "spokeswoman" or "spokesperson?" And if you prefer the sound of "spokesperson" then it makes just as much sense to apply it to both genders.

[richardamullens]

I'm not really interested in participating more than I already have in this thread, but I just had to note that the examples you gave are particularly poor choices for your "cause."

I don't have a "cause". I'm just replying to the "existence" question posed by simpkin.

"Dwarf" is most commonly used to refer to a short, stout, non-human creature whose ancestors and relatives (if not himself) mine for gems and hoard treasure. Perhaps getting their caves taken over by dragons or demons occasionally. They also make fine crafts, hoard money miserly and drive a hard bargain.

You seem to be taking an example from Alice through the looking glass.
"When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less."

Or maybe you have just spent too much time reading science fantasy.

In fact, from dictionary.com we have:

1.
a person of abnormally small stature owing to a pathological condition, esp. one suffering from cretinism or some other disease that produces disproportion or deformation of features and limbs.

For your second one, who on earth EVER thought it would be a good idea to refer to people with an obvious disability with the same adjective as someone from another country? The first time I came across the term "Mongoloid" I think it was in one of H.P. Lovecraft's first published stories (he later apologized for the racism shown in his very early works, by the way) and it wasn't until years later that I realized he didn't mean someone from Mongolia! So by that, you say everyone from Mongolia has Down's? Or at least everyone with Down's is from Mongolia? Gee, why would people ever find that offensive?

You are wet behind the ears ! The term was in common use until not so long ago.
I am not giving a justification for the term, just noting that it is what was used.

Your logic is faulty also. If having Down's syndrome makes someone's features similar to those of people from Mongolia, one cannot infer that people from Mongolia have Down's - as you seem to suggest.

I don't think that most people have problems with "spokesman" applied to an abstract position - it's only when it is applied to someone of a different gender that it makes sense to distinguish. "She is the spokesman" - really? Isn't she the "spokeswoman" or "spokesperson?" And if you prefer the sound of "spokesperson" then it makes just as much sense to apply it to both genders.

A new word, a verbal barbarism, has been invented by people who have nothing better to do.

[hyperpape]

The example of a man losing his job for saying niggardly, is, I'm sad to say, a real one. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Controvers ... d_incident. It wasn't the proudest moment for 'merica.

If richardamullens didn't exist, I'd have to invent him. At one point in this thread, I considered writing "we don't call people mongoloids" but thought it was a strawman and inflammatory...

@John F: I'm genuinely confused, how did global warming come up in this thread?

[hyperpape]

Two ways in which I'm dissatisfied with these discussions:

1) Offense--I think it's a poor way to think about the topic. This is often the fault of people who are concerned about language--they just say "x is offensive" without thinking harder. As John so points out, offensiveness is a two-way street. In fact, in my experience, the man being told he should change his language is ten times as offended as the person he's talking about--he knows that he's the victim. But you can be offended for decent reasons or bad ones.

2) Derogatory--to be derogatory you have to have intent. I suppose Mr. Mullens probably didn't mean anything derogatory by referring to mysterious and exotic oriental women. But the phrase remains condescending and trivializing, whether the speaker means that or not.

[Kirby]

...
As John so points out, offensiveness is a two-way street. In fact, in my experience, the man being told he should change his language is ten times as offended as the person he's talking about--he knows that he's the victim. ...

You can only control your own behavior. If you are the person creating the offense in the first place, if somebody brings up that you are offending people, you can resolve the situation by changing your behavior.

If the coin is flipped, and you let somebody know that they are offending a particular group, and you find out that you offended the person in letting them know this information, you can again resolve the situation by making amends with that person.

Either way you can come to a resolution, but you can only control yourself.

[richardamullens]

2) Derogatory--to be derogatory you have to have intent. I suppose Mr. Mullens probably didn't mean anything derogatory by referring to mysterious and exotic oriental women. But the phrase remains condescending and trivializing, whether the speaker means that or not.

I wish that people would take the time to read what I said, rather than criticising me for something that I didn't say !

Here it is again for the umpteenth time

To me "oriental" is not in the least pejorative. I might say that "I like oriental girls" where there is a hint of mystery or exoticism implied and it certainly beats reeling off a long list of countries.

I am not saying that oriental girls are exotic or mysterious, rather I am saying that oriental implies this. In other words it is an association that someone might draw from the use of the word oriental !

If richardamullens didn't exist, I'd have to invent him

What are we to make of "hyperpape" ? Are we to imagine that it means "ultra pope" and his pronouncements are "ex cathedra" and therefore infallible ?

[daal]

I don't think that most people have problems with "spokesman" applied to an abstract position - it's only when it is applied to someone of a different gender that it makes sense to distinguish. "She is the spokesman" - really? Isn't she the "spokeswoman" or "spokesperson?" And if you prefer the sound of "spokesperson" then it makes just as much sense to apply it to both genders.

A new word, a verbal barbarism, has been invented by people who have nothing better to do.

I think you are taking the crusade against the language barbarians too far with this. Language is constantly evolving to reflect the changes in the world around us, and the word spokesman cropped up before there were women doing the job. Would you not mind being called a spokeslady if things were the other way around? Do you think we should still be using the word "ankles" to refer to all of a woman's body below the waist, as was common in the 19th century? In some cases, replacing a word that ignores half of the population is perhaps clumsy, but no one twists their tongue anymore when talking about the chair of the department, for example. Our civilization... or society...or humanity, not just mankind is moving forward- that's not so difficult, is it?

By the way, even though you were only using this as an example of what you find to be an acceptable use of the word "oriental," the problem with "I like oriental girls," has more to do with the objectification and belittling of women than with the implications of the word "oriental," which perhaps due to our limited contact with their cultures, still carries such pleasant associations such as the aroma of spices once unimaginable in the west. While I personally can't help but think of belly dancers and harems, and find it not abnormal for men to like women, I imagine that nowadays, a particular oriental woman might not appreciate being liked for what rather than who she is.

[richardamullens]

I think you are taking the crusade against the language barbarians too far with this. Language is constantly evolving to reflect the changes in the world around us, and the word spokesman cropped up before there were women doing the job. Would you not mind being called a spokeslady if things were the other way around?

I would certainly object to "spokeslady" but "spokeswoman" would be ok.


Regarding liking Oriental girls, I think it is the Occidental ones that would object the more.

[daal]

Please can we have an example - an actual, concrete example, not a "my aunt's dog's nurse's sister said" - of these "PC Wallahs" and their "pronouncements"?

Not things like the rubbish Javaness has spouted about "having to say vertically challenged instead of short", actual examples.

Presumably you regard this very debate about "Oriental" to be one such example, but you have said a great deal about how appallingly much the "PC people" are inhibiting your life and causing you problems and offending you, so clearly they must be a problem all the time and there must be lots and lots of real examples you could give.

Or possibly you're going around believing the media when they say Birmingham's "cancelled Christmas" and that children can't learn "baa baa black sheep" any more, when in fact none of these stories are true at all.

Simkin I think is not off the mark with her suspicion that much of the anti-PC crusade is blown out of proportion. While bowdlerizing - or removing even the remotest references to sex - may indeed have caused real damage at the onset of the Victorian era, most of the examples appearing in the Official Politically Correct Dictionary and Handbook by Beard and Cerf were in fact made up by the authors. While some real euphemisms are certainly laughable, I think we don't generally regret that some words are no longer socially acceptable, such as "nigg.. oops.

[hyperpape]

What are we to make of "hyperpape" ? Are we to imagine that it means "ultra pope" and his pronouncements are "ex cathedra" and therefore infallible ?

Short for hyperpapeterie, or "super paper store", but try remembering the spelling of that. The original hyperpapeterie was in Paris and was the most vividly colored shop in an entire drab block. I do find it cute that the short version translates as super pope.

[Javaness]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spastic makes interesting reading if, it can be believed. Once again it describes Americans as people from the USA, which degrades all the other nations from the two continents. The reason why it isn't considered degrading is probably an amusing irony.

I remember having a discussion with some people about why they shouldn't be racist and call Americans stupid. They said I was wrong because Americans were stupid. Cloacked in the mask of social acceptablity, (commonplace humour), all vestiges of reason vanished out of the window.

It's interesting to learn the cultural background behind these terms.
Admining on KGS I learnt that scumbag (normally a comedy insult in the UK) is considered to be very rude in the USA. On an international server, differences like this make decision making difficult sometimes. I take it that Oriental has become offensive because of the inability of people in the USA to tell Orientals apart? Or is that combined with the inability to visualise Orientals belonging to the 21st century (AKA expecting people from Africa to live in jungle huts a la Tarzan syndrome)? Maybe somebody could elaborate on that, but that seems to be the suggestion from what has been said here. In Europe (well the UK and Ireland at least) it seems that hasn't been the case. So I don't believe that in Europe one should (yet) expect to treat the word Oriental as taboo. It's not yet something I have encountered - indeed, this year in London there was an Oriental Occidental Go team match recently IIRC. Certainly in regards to the original statement, I would believe that all of them are reasonably educated in the differences between Oriental countries. Has anyone in Europe experienced a problem when using this word?

I expect we're not really allowed to talk about this kind of thing though. So I do wonder why this thread hasn't been locked yet.