Shikshin 3p a hair's breadth from promotion

[jlt]

Also, I find it much easier to follow commentaries made with a physical board. Yes, a filmed real board.

The advantage of a filmed real board is that putting magnetic stones takes more time than clicking on a mouse, thus giving the audience more time to understand.

[Ferran]

The advantage of a filmed real board is that putting magnetic stones takes more time than clicking on a mouse, thus giving the audience more time to understand.

Yes. I also suspect my brain considers it more "real". And there's a "process" to putting the stone that a mouse doesn't quite substitute. Top camera on a goban also works, for me, and it's quite faster than club magnetics.

Take care

[Ferran]

I can't tell if it was edited today, but I've just checked and the link about the 3rd EGPL is on top of the news. The link to the stream is easy to see on the EGPL page.

The page for the European Online Women's Go Championship 2020 is being updated promptly and well; it's very responsive. I'm not following the League any longer. Some of it is personal reasons, some of it is that the website doesn't make it any easy to follow. I think I mentioned that in the threads for past editions of the League. To put a current example, last stage of the women's tournament ended yesterday. The results are already tabulated, the paitings for the next round are already known, and so are the dates (not the timetable, though, yet). In contrast, the Pro League still sports the "billboards" for last weekend's games. We have to *assume* we'll have games next weekend, but... In September the ... tiebreak? was announced less than 24 hrs before the game IIRC, out of schedule. I wrote it there but, frankly, I'm way too tired of it all to dig for it.

Take care.

[silviu22]

But I don't see any of them defeating the Asians.

Open your eyes then. http://www.go4go.net/go/games/sgfview/86624. It was unlucky for Ilya that he beat this world top 50 player in the first round of an international tournament which happened to have 64 not 32 players, thus missing the EGF pro system's rules of what counts as a worthy international win (only round of 32 and later).

Ilya and Mateusz also scored several wins against Asian pros in the Chinese C league. There's lots of Asian pros they can beat, just the ones you play in the final 32 of international tournaments are the top Asian pros, rather than weak or average or above average but not super amazing ones.

My eyes are very open. I remember that game as I follow all the European pros very closely. Yes, I do know they can beat some Asian players, but I meant the "Strong Asians" that make to the last 32 (I thought that was implied).

In order to make it to 5p, Ilya would need 3-5 big wins in these later stages. And from what I have seen so far, even the Japanese players have a very tough time in these tournaments. Ichiriki Ryo seems to be the only one with some success. Shibano Toramaru and Iyama Yuta routinely lose in the first round.

And time is running out for Ilya. He just turned 30, which for top go players marks the start of the decline. So, with eyes wide open, I will make the following claim: none of the current European pros will make it to 5p under the current European promotion system. They might get 1-2 HDPs if they get some very lucky draw, but not 5 HDP. I think their most likely chance is to somehow play against American players in these tournaments. Ilya had a good chance in that particular tournament (MLily 4) because his opponent in the last 32 was a Korean amateur. So that was a big missed opportunity to get a HDP. He would need several of these to get all 5 HDPs necessary to get a 5p ranking.

[Ferran]

So, with eyes wide open, I will make the following claim: none of the current European pros will make it to 5p under the current European promotion system.

Well, as I understand the current rules, you only get HDP through classification, not games, and it doesn't even explain what "the world pro tournaments" are. Right there it might be a good idea to change the rules and clarify them. If a "world pro tournament" is by invitation, does it count? Because they tend to be smaller, so top16 becomes reachable. And so on.

OTOH, once we get there... Maybe we might want to have single games ammount to something? I dunno. Do we want higher dans in Europe? Because the moment you have single games count, sooner or later players will have enough victories in their satcher and will increase in rank, little by little. That's how we got the scores of 9p we have now. Or maybe we want a more classical system? Say, at most an 8p per country, a single godok... sorry, a single 9p in the whole association? It would be ironic, at least, but closer to the real proportion.

I don't know what's better for go, European Go, or professionals, in whichever order.

Take care.

[silviu22]

Well, as I understand the current rules, you only get HDP through classification, not games, and it doesn't even explain what "the world pro tournaments" are. Right there it might be a good idea to change the rules and clarify them. If a "world pro tournament" is by invitation, does it count? Because they tend to be smaller, so top16 becomes reachable. And so on.

OTOH, once we get there... Maybe we might want to have single games ammount to something? I dunno. Do we want higher dans in Europe? Because the moment you have single games count, sooner or later players will have enough victories in their satcher and will increase in rank, little by little. That's how we got the scores of 9p we have now. Or maybe we want a more classical system? Say, at most an 8p per country, a single godok... sorry, a single 9p in the whole association? It would be ironic, at least, but closer to the real proportion.

I assume the world pro tournaments giving HDPs are the big ones (like Samsung Cup, LG Cup, etc) - the ones whose winners are called "world champion". (I have a big problem with that characterization, since these are invitational tournaments, but that's a different story).

The European pros usually go by invitation and have an elaborate system for qualifying using International nomination points. The current points are here and the system is here).

It seems that the next two tournaments which will give them a chance to earn HDPs are Chunlan Cup #13 (Ilya Shikshin) and ING Cup #9 (Ali Jabarin).

In a way, Europeans came up with a way to avoid having scores of high dan players, which make the dan ranking almost meaningless. They decided "only those with exceptional results in the top world tournaments deserve the high rankings of 5p or above". This is admirable to me. I believe most will reach 4p and probably none will reach 5p.

Also, they rely on the organizers' good will as they might decide at some point to stop inviting Europeans and Americans and give those precious slots to players from the big 4 Asian Countries. (If it was after me, I would do away to slots for countries and would implement an online qualification system and make everybody qualify. And if only Chinese and Korean players qualify, so be it.)

So it will be very difficult for European pros to get even one HDP because you get one chance every 1-2 years (if you're lucky) and you play some very strong players to get to the top 16 stage. And to get 5 HDP seems very unlikely for the current players, even for Ilya.

It might happen now that you have lots of players that can train against AI. But in my opinion, none of the current EGF players will ever reach 5p. There might be some kid out there that will make it someday, like Michael Redmond. But that kid would probably have to put go above regular school. And I don't know how many European parents would accept that.

[Ferran]

I assume the world pro tournaments giving HDPs are the big ones (like Samsung Cup, LG Cup, etc) - the ones whose winners are called "world champion". (I have a big problem with that characterization, since these are invitational tournaments, but that's a different story).

I'd agree myself, but assumptions are dangerous. Everyone knows what something means until there is a problem.

But, for example, the LG cup "There are 16 players who compete in a preliminary, and another 16 players are invited. The latest edition had 256 competitors in the preliminary, the biggest in history." [Wiki] If a European player got invited past the prelims, a single victory would yield points. Almost the same with the Chunlan. As I understood the European system for nominees, it resets a player's nomination points after each participation, so it leans rotational (which might not be to the best interests of the tournament sponsors). But an association could invite anyone. BTW, as I understand it, we could have an Euro pro by winning games in such events and getting into the pro system by the side door.

In a way, Europeans came up with a way to avoid having scores of high dan players[...] They decided "only those with exceptional results in the top world tournaments deserve the high rankings of 5p or above".

A minor quibble: The EGF decided it, not Europeans. And, yes, I see its advantages. As with the rotational participation, it merits some thought. How many 9p can Europe have? I think I read some threads some time ago on playing population and pro ratio, but no one could get decent data, IIRC.

Also, they rely on the organizers' good will as they might decide at some point to stop inviting Europeans and Americans and give those precious slots to players from the big 4 Asian Countries. (If it was after me, I would do away to slots for countries and would implement an online qualification system and make everybody qualify. And if only Chinese and Korean players qualify, so be it.)

Two points.

One, it also relies on the coincidence of goals AND methods. The organizers might not give a damn about Euro Pro promotion. Or even agree that the selection of candidates is proper. Or... You name it. Any such things could become a hurdle.

Second, regarding country slots, it's probably simply more convenient. Otherwise you need a lot of flight time or a decent remote playing set up. I *think* the Nihon Kiin does have separate qualification ladders per branch, in their own tournaments. They end up fusing after a certain point, but they start separate.

But in my opinion, none of the current EGF players will ever reach 5p. There might be some kid out there that will make it someday, like Michael Redmond. But that kid would probably have to put go above regular school. And I don't know how many European parents would accept that.

"Never" is a very long word. We'll see. And European parents? Which ones? The ones in the Faroes or the ones in the Crimea?

Take care.

[hyperpape]

If I go to eurogofed.org or usgo.org, will I know that (a) these tournament games are streaming weekly, or (b) that Michael Redmond and Chris Garlock have their series on Sunday? (Answers: (a) not that I can tell,

I can't tell if it was edited today, but I've just checked and the link about the 3rd EGPL is on top of the news. The link to the stream is easy to see on the EGPL page.

My mistake. Once I read your comment, I remembered navigating to the sub-page a few weeks ago, but I didn't think to do it when I wrote this post.

[Ferran]

I was checking something else in the EGD and checked this, too. For whatever's worth, according to EGD, since 1/1/2019...

* Shikshin has been above 4p (ELO 2790+)
* Kachanovskyi has been just below 3p
* Surma almost reached 3p
* Lisy descended from a high 3p to a 2p
* Jabarin fell to a low 1p but recovered
* Kravets has stabilised at the 1p mark
* Le Calve has dropped a bit from his top when qualifying

This is also reflected in their LDP, but it's move visual. By these account, and taking an also visual progression, I wouldn't be surprised if EGF 2p's reached 3p with a certain comfort, and kept incresing their ELO. Meaning, reached a higher competitive level, regardless of their professional dan.

The only thing I'm not quite sure is if the EGD ELO isn't biased. But I simply don't know it enough. Take care.

[silviu22]

Ilya Shikshin has won the Grand Prix finale by defeating Artem Kachanovskyi 2-0. He also became 4p today, exactly 2 years after reaching 3p on Jan 27, 2019.
Congratulations - he's clearly the best European! All he needs to do now is learn to defeat the top Asians who have been immersed in Go since childhood.