Trying the fifth

[Ferran]

I'm probably going to try, for a while, opening on the fifth. 5-3, 5-4 and 5-5. I don't particularly "like" 5-5, but, as dwyrin just said, I dislike 3-3 invasions, and playing 3-4, which I DO like, has exposed a defect of mine: I tend to crawl to the third. Which would be okay if it was a choice, but it's a gote reflex. (Good news is that I used to do that on the 2nd).

Let's see if being forced to the outside helps. Any suggestions?

Incidentally, I've been surprised at how many 5-3 and 5-4 I'm finding in the Genjo-Chitolu series. I'd have expected it much later.

Take care. Happy New year

[jlt]

If you don't like your opponent doing X to you, then try doing X to your opponents to see how they react.

[Ferran]

If you don't like your opponent doing X to you, then try doing X to your opponents to see how they react.

To me, this sounds like "if you don't like being slapped, slap other people and see how they react" or, less confrontstional, maybe, "if you don't like ham, serve it to your kids and see how they react".

Also, what I don't like is the game it creates, not whatever it does to me. So, why would I do something I don't like? It would be like serving that ham above to myself, too. I lose interest in high-(ish? Mid Dan ama and pros) level games when they have early invasions; why on earth would I do that to my own game?

Take care

[Boidhre]

It's more you see ways to deal with it when you are the one trying to get it to work.

Why do you dislike 3,3 invasions so much?

[jlt]

Let me elaborate a bit. You don't like being pressed down on the second or third line. But why do you crawl like that? Maybe because you like territory too much and don't see the value of influence. So you have to change your state of mind. Take the center and realize that each time your opponent adds a move on the third line, you are just giving him 2 points, but that what you are gaining in the center may be more valuable.

But then, maybe you are not used to playing for influence, so your opponent will find ways to counter your influence. So next time your opponent is starting to get too much influence, you will have ideas how to reduce it.

[Ferran]

Why do you dislike 3,3 invasions so much?

1. Even the best fare gets repetitive after breakfast, lunch, tea, dinner and supper.

2. It seems to be part and parcel with games that are very local, a spilling dump of black tar and white lumps of grease .

3. Related, the joseki that usually follow have no breathing space. It's like fencing with a straightjacket.

Does that make sense? Take care

[Ferran]

But why do you crawl like that?

Fear. Fear is my mind's killer. I actually like influence.

But then, maybe you are not used to playing for influence, so your opponent will find ways to counter your influence. So next time your opponent is starting to get too much influence, you will have ideas how to reduce it.

Which might lead me to choose 5-4. It looks like I might get both choices there: influence, getting invaded and fighting HIS influence.

Three? You see why I suck at Go? I can't count past two.

Take care

[Boidhre]

Variety is very much the spice of life when it comes to go. It's extremely valid to get sick of a particular fuseki pattern repeating over and over. I would say have fun, play a wide range of opening moves from 3-3 to 6-4 and in review try to find the mistakes you make over and over and try to think about how to help that.

But keeping the game feeling interesting and fresh is very important. Later when returning to the 4,4 you might find it and the 3,3 invasion more interesting but you don't need to force that now.

[Harleqin]

I guess that you should try everything out. You might find the right kind of opening for your playing style. However, I think that it is unlikely that you can compensate for bad later plays by choosing a different opening. For that, I'd recommend reviewing and then learning better plays from that.

[Ferran]

My goal is not so much to compensate or use the opening as an advantage of sorts. Nor do I expect to stay on fifth for "long". My goal is to use the opening to force me to play outside. It's going to take some effort to crawl into second from fifth. With some luck, I'll grow some "influence eyes" and less instinct for the 2nd.

In the meanwhile, I'm going to get clobbered. The way I see it, I'm forcing limitations to find a different way. This does not substitute reviewing, of course: I suspect it rather mandates it.

Take care

[mhlepore]

I like to play 5-4, 5-5, 6-4 stuff in the opening. It is a good way of telling yourself that the game is not won in the first four moves.

Is it suboptimal? I'm sure it is. But if suboptimal means two or three points worse than perfect play, I don't really care about that.

Also, when your opponent sees you playing high moves, sometimes they will try very hard to keep you from getting outside influence, and as a result you are made an offer you cannot refuse, and end up with great territory early in the game.

[Uberdude]

I've had people insta-resign if I play opening moves more than 4 lines from the edge.

[Knotwilg]

If I understand correctly, the OP doesn't dislike 3-3 so much because it gives a bad result but because the kind of game that results of it, is boring or otherwise unappealing, and so returning the favor is not really solving the issue.

I sympathize with that and anyway alternative openings on 3-3, 3-4, 3-5, 4-5 are not substantially worse than 4-4, even more adventurous openings aren't.

Myself I like the simplicity of 4-4 and when 3-3'd I find there's enough variety. Depending on whether I need the territory or the influence I play these two patterns

$$B territory - gote
$$---------------
$$ . . . . . . . .
$$ . . . . . . . .
$$ . . 1 2 . . . .
$$ . 0 3 O . . . .
$$ . 5 4 8 . . . .
$$ . 6 7 . . . . .
$$ . 9 . . . . . .

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B territory - gote
$$---------------
$$ . . . . . . . .
$$ . . . . . . . .
$$ . . 1 2 . . . .
$$ . 0 3 O . . . .
$$ . 5 4 8 . . . .
$$ . 6 7 . . . . .
$$ . 9 . . . . . .[/go]

$$B influence - sente
$$---------------
$$ . . . . . . . .
$$ . . . . . . . .
$$ . . 1 2 . . . .
$$ . . 3 O . . . .
$$ . . 5 4 . . . .
$$ . 7 6 . . . . .
$$ . . . . . . . .

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B influence - sente
$$---------------
$$ . . . . . . . .
$$ . . . . . . . .
$$ . . 1 2 . . . .
$$ . . 3 O . . . .
$$ . . 5 4 . . . .
$$ . 7 6 . . . . .
$$ . . . . . . . .[/go]

[KayBur]

If I understand correctly, the OP doesn't dislike 3-3 so much because it gives a bad result but because the kind of game that results of it, is boring or otherwise unappealing, and so returning the favor is not really solving the issue.

I sympathize with that and anyway alternative openings on 3-3, 3-4, 3-5, 4-5 are not substantially worse than 4-4, even more adventurous openings aren't.

Myself I like the simplicity of 4-4 and when 3-3'd I find there's enough variety. Depending on whether I need the territory or the influence I play these two patterns

$$B territory - gote
$$---------------
$$ . . . . . . . .
$$ . . . . . . . .
$$ . . 1 2 . . . .
$$ . 0 3 O . . . .
$$ . 5 4 8 . . . .
$$ . 6 7 . . . . .
$$ . 9 . . . . . .

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B territory - gote
$$---------------
$$ . . . . . . . .
$$ . . . . . . . .
$$ . . 1 2 . . . .
$$ . 0 3 O . . . .
$$ . 5 4 8 . . . .
$$ . 6 7 . . . . .
$$ . 9 . . . . . .[/go]

$$B influence - sente
$$---------------
$$ . . . . . . . .
$$ . . . . . . . .
$$ . . 1 2 . . . .
$$ . . 3 O . . . .
$$ . . 5 4 . . . .
$$ . 7 6 . . . . .
$$ . . . . . . . .

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B influence - sente
$$---------------
$$ . . . . . . . .
$$ . . . . . . . .
$$ . . 1 2 . . . .
$$ . . 3 O . . . .
$$ . . 5 4 . . . .
$$ . 7 6 . . . . .
$$ . . . . . . . .[/go]

Interesting approach. Have you tried playing with a different scheme? I think the variety would be more interesting. But if you are a beginner, then of course it is better to work out one scheme first. I'm also a beginner, trying different game schemes, but so far the result is small.