Why did AGA not continue the pro certification program?

[John Fairbairn]

What do you mean by "fussiness about rank accreditation"?

I'm thinking of things like arguments here over whether tournaments with short time limits should or should not count towards promotion. But also the rule-obsessed mentality so characteristic of western go in general. It's all a species of angelology.

Go (like chess) is often touted as a model for learning lessons about life. I don't see much evidence of that among western pros when it comes to organising their own communal affairs. They prefer pinheads to the world's globe.

The EGF and national Go associations are already organize many activities for young players, for instance

Just producing more people of the same predominant self-centred type we already have isn't going to get anything done. Even if we have a bigger army, we still need a general.

[dust]

Hello!First the market in the Us is too small,its impossible to live from just playing go,and seems too hard to attract sponsors,so giving more pro certificates is kind of no use,2. The only way a european can be world champion if is raised and traines in asia for his whole life,which kind of doesnt count,until the infrastructure in europe is big enoogh to create a world champ,it may need around 200-300 more years

I wonder if the rise of AI has changed this situation a lot. It's no longer necessary to travel to Asia to learn high level new moves, study go, play strong opponents etc. I think it's conceivable that a future world champion could come through the internet and using AI as a study tool route rather than through a formal training programme.

[Harleqin]

John, what do you have in mind when you say “facilities”?

[jlt]

I wonder if the rise of AI has changed this situation a lot. It's no longer necessary to travel to Asia to learn high level new moves, study go, play strong opponents etc. I think it's conceivable that a future world champion could come through the internet and using AI as a study tool route rather than through a formal training programme.

You can certainly learn many things by yourself, not just go, but we are not just neural networks. Humans are social animals, and our brain not only produces rational thinking but also emotions. It's very difficult to be motivated without enough human interaction. Online academic programs could be useful, although less good than real human contact.

[Ferran]

Just producing more people of the same predominant self-centred type we already have isn't going to get anything done. Even if we have a bigger army, we still need a general.

I'm wondering several things, in kinda the same vein.

First, I'm not convinced we need professionals in the competing sense. IIRC, there was a kinda of "teaching professional" diploma from the Nihon Kiin, and that we do need, and sort of have. Now, I can't talk about the quality of the instruction, because I haven't tried either nor do I likely have the level to appreciate it, but we do have people on the internet earning some money teaching through KGS and such, from Europe. Or using Patreon. To put two examples from the same country, we have Tanguy Le Calvé and "HisokaH". One is a certified pro (and has a school and some offers), the other has been covering Go on Youtube for the last 6 years. Including a series of, so far, 15 videos and almost 7 hrs on Go Seigen. Redmond 9p doesn't have a book in English, that I'm aware of, on his own teacher, but an Amateur in France got in front of a mike. Who is more useful to the amateur? Except for the very last book by Michael Redmond (and an amateur) on AlphaGo, and Antti Törmännen's two books (one of them also on AlphaGo), how many books have been written by Western pros, of late? Surma 2p has a series of tsumego; anyone else? Granted, they have other things that require their time (competing, real life classes...). And yet, my question remains: who is more useful for the European Ama?

With that in mind... Do we need a general? There was an essay some years ago [1999], by a USMC General, on something called "The Strategic Corporal", and I have to wonder if that doesn't suit us better. Common citizens, with their strengths and leanings, taking advantage of those. Using internet to get in touch, get a network of events going. Sure, many of them will be a ship in the night. So?

I wonder if the rise of AI has changed this situation a lot. It's no longer necessary to travel to Asia to learn high level new moves, study go, play strong opponents etc. I think it's conceivable that a future world champion could come through the internet and using AI as a study tool route rather than through a formal training programme.

It's no longer necessary to travel to Asia to play against high level moves. I'd say learning them is something different. Mind you, the first part can be quite valuable on it's own, but people historically played TWO GAMES against their sensei. One must assume that he did something else besides that. Can AI fill those invisible roles?

Take care.

[Javaness2]

In what sense can you consider CEGO to be a partnership

[jlt]

Partnership may not be the correct word. My point was that Europe doesn't lack contacts with China or other asian countries, but the player base is far too small to expect emergence of world-class players.

[karlsgo]

It is absolutely vital that this officer would have a proper sense of priorities: facilities and securing patronage. ...

Obviously no-one is going to toss money into an open pit, so an achievable business plan, with specific goals and not the waffle I have seen so far, is needed.

But I'm sure there are plenty of similar and workable ideas.

Thank you very much for your message. When I begin to organize Go here in the region and I said "business plan" every Go player looked at me like someone from an other planet.

I see a big need for an ecosystem for Go in the western world (not only to establish a Pro system). And the structural foundation of the sport, however is expandable (a problem we share with sports like Darts - they have a good media coverage, but at least in Germany no big player and organizational base).

[Knotwilg]

There's also the question "why". Why do you need continental role models?

Maybe it's just me but in the world of table tennis I've always rooted for the Chinese star Ma Long, not for the European Dimitri Ovtcharov or the extremely likeable Timo Boll. Nor for the Chinese Fan Zendong or Xu Xin, however spectacular he is. Ma Long was my role model and inspiration (for being a sucker).

In Go I've been rooting first for Otake Hideo, then Ma XiaoChun and finally Gu Li. Today's players don't inspire me. It would make no difference if Tanguy or Ilya were on top pro level. It's style and personality that matters.

Again, maybe nationality or skin color matters for others to choose a role model.

[jlt]

You are not trying to become a professional.

For someone who is trying to become a pro, it is nice to know that it's possible to reach a high level without needing to emigrate to a far east asian country.

[Ferran]

There's also the question "why". Why do you need continental role models?

They're easier to invite. If you can have local "stars", you can have them more often at events, which might help retaining new players.

That goes double (actually, much more) if your definition of "professional" includes people who don't much play professionally, but who teach.

Take care.

[xiaodai]

using AI as a study tool route rather than through a formal training programme.

It's not just AI you need to familiar with life and death and such

[Ferran]

That goes double (actually, much more) if your definition of "professional" includes people who don't much play professionally, but who teach.

Sorry to quote myself, but I just found this today. I think it's the first time I find that many Western instructors in a single site. I'd still prefer to know more about their teaching credentials and not as much about their competition stats, but I do think it's a very important step in the right direction. (I also know a lot of people like titles...)

Take care.

[John Fairbairn]

Sorry to quote myself, but I just found this today.

Looks like a good idea. But why did they not mention it here? (Or reddit???)

[jlt]

Here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=17337&p=254996#p254996