It is currently Tue Oct 19, 2021 11:01 am

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 40 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
Offline
 Post subject: TwentyTwentyOneDan
Post #1 Posted: Tue Feb 16, 2021 8:34 pm 
Dies in gote

Posts: 31
Liked others: 7
Was liked: 1
Rank: KGS 10 kyu
KGS: SinKing
OGS: J__P__
I picked up Go about a decade ago (in fact my old study journal from 2010 is here (https://www.lifein19x19.com/forum/viewt ... =48&t=2058). I got very into it, got to about 11 kyu in a few months, then life got in the way and I didn't really play again until the last year or two when I found myself bored at a very undemanding part-time job.

Back in November (after watching The Queen's Gambit) I thought it would be nice to take it a little more seriously and after a few months getting back into it, and last week I managed get that SDK on KGS.

The nominal goal for this journal then is to get to one Dan by the end of 2021, a stone per month, with one to spare. In reality, it will be a set of games played and puzzles solved and reviews reviewed. I'm not letting myself get too hung up on the actual time frame here, any improvement is good by me.

If people have any suggestions as to what’s best to study/read/do to improve at this level I’m 80% ears.

Currently, I’m reading through the first six of the Elementary Go Series (just finished the book on openings and skimming through the one about 38 joseki). I think it’s a little out of the recommended order, but those six books seem to cover all the major points from fuseki to yose, so I’m using that as a refresher before setting myself a more serious tsumego based curriculum.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: TwentyTwentyOneDan
Post #2 Posted: Wed Feb 17, 2021 2:07 am 
Lives in gote

Posts: 430
Location: Netherlands
Liked others: 231
Was liked: 123
Rank: EGF 3d
Universal go server handle: gennan
I'd like to note that rank progress in go typically doesn't go linearly with effort invested. Typically, the relation between effort and progress is an exponentially decaying function.

So (for example) when going from 30k to 10k takes you a unit of effort x, adding that same amount of effort may only bring you to 6k. Adding the next unit of effort may only bring you as far as 4k and the next to 3k. So even when your progress is 1 rank per month initially, chances are that you won't be able to keep that same rate of improvement.

In my opinion, setting goals like this for your progress in go is harmful. Most likely, you're setting yourself up to end up being disappointed with yourself. So I would recommend to just invest the amount of effort that you are willing to sustain and not care too much about your rank improvement.


Last edited by gennan on Wed Feb 17, 2021 6:20 am, edited 1 time in total.

This post by gennan was liked by 3 people: Bill Spight, gowan, SpongeBob
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: TwentyTwentyOneDan
Post #3 Posted: Wed Feb 17, 2021 4:46 am 
Lives in sente
User avatar

Posts: 1310
Liked others: 114
Was liked: 412
A few suggestions, based on what I haven't always been doing right:

  • Study everything: opening, josekis, life-and-death, tesuji, endgame, reductions, invasions, how to attack, to defend, to make good shape, to play with or against a moyo, to use influence, etc.
  • Don't play only on KGS but try Asian servers as well (Fox, Tygem) to get a variety of styles.
  • Review your games with AI or with a stronger player and try to extract 1-2 useful ideas from the game review.
  • Try to incorporate new ideas or new moves into your games. Trust the advice of stronger players or of books, even if they seem counter-intuitive, you need actual game experience to fully understand why they are correct.
  • Watch pro games, or games between high-dan players. You won't understand everything but may pick up good shapes, or techniques you wouldn't have thought of by yourself.
  • Most importantly: don't care about rank, but care about learning. Enjoyment comes from understanding, seeing things that you used to be blind to.


This post by jlt was liked by 5 people: Bill Spight, daal, gennan, gowan, SoDesuNe
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: TwentyTwentyOneDan
Post #4 Posted: Wed Feb 17, 2021 7:09 am 
Dies in gote

Posts: 59
Location: France
Liked others: 35
Was liked: 18
I agree with not setting goals for a particular rank and you mentionned that any improvement is fine which is good.

There is one good way to not care about rank but still stay competitive.

Having rank anxiety myself (I think this is what it is called) I've tried many things to overcome the problem.

If you play on OGS, there's an option to hide ranks everywhere. You still play competitively but don't see drops or bumps in ranks.
On KGS I use automatch and I accept 2 ranks difference and allow unranked players and free games + fast and normal, no blitz for studying.

After a few games I got used to playing free games (thus not seeing the rank move) and playing free or rated became the same.
Of course I encounter guests, sandbaggers, trolls, escapers but I gather game experience.

I also used to get emotionally attached to an account and once I reached a certain rank I would just stop playing so that it doesn't not go down.

If you have the same problem, you need to create a random account, call it xy14d7 or whatever, set the automatch as above and just press play without thinking whenever you have the time. Get as much game experience as possible make it a habit to just play and not think that maybe you haven't improved, maybe you should watch another video before playing a ranked game...etc.

I've been playing for quite some time and got stuck at the same rank for the reasons above.

I've just started to recently apply the stuff above. I don't think my rank has increased yet, but my attitude toward the game changed dramatically.
Live game anxiety disappeared, fear of losing disappeared and I can focus on studying, learning, enjoying the game again.

Oh and on asian servers, I like to register as high a rank as I am allowed to. This is the only way I found to play against strong players on a regular basis.
Just never, ever sandbag or set your rank a few stone lower so that you at least get a few wins in the beginning. You're wasting study time. Play strong opponents and lose a lot :)

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: TwentyTwentyOneDan
Post #5 Posted: Wed Feb 17, 2021 8:14 am 
Gosei

Posts: 1511
Liked others: 462
Was liked: 423
Rank: 5d
GD Posts: 1000
Aiming at defusing rank anxiety and paralysis, I'd just point out that 1d or shodan is a moving target and, by itself, is not well defined. For example, an American 3k might well be 1d in Japan; an American 1d might be 4k on OGS or 3k in France; an American 1d might be 4d on Tygem. My point is the rank designation is not the important thing about playing go, enjoying playing is what really counts. I knew a man who loved go, played in tournaments regularly for many years, and never got (American) rank higher than 12k, but he really loved to play.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: TwentyTwentyOneDan
Post #6 Posted: Sat Feb 20, 2021 1:59 pm 
Dies in gote

Posts: 31
Liked others: 7
Was liked: 1
Rank: KGS 10 kyu
KGS: SinKing
OGS: J__P__
Thanks for the advice guys. I am on a Mac so hitting up the Asian servers is a little harder. I managed to get Tygem and WBaduk working on my phone though, I've set my ranking a bit high and will airbag for a bit until my rank stabilises.

This week's likely a bit busy to do much Go, I have end-of-month deadlines and I've let them stack up a bit. Though I will try and squeeze in a few games here and there. My goal at the moment is to finish skimming "38 Basic Joseki" and try and hit 50 games for Feb (I'm at 35/50 atm).

I'll have slightly more ambitious goals for March I think, I'll think about what's practical and desirable before the first.

I'll also try and figure out teaching ladders and posting games for review to these forums.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: TwentyTwentyOneDan
Post #7 Posted: Tue Feb 23, 2021 10:56 am 
Dies in gote

Posts: 31
Liked others: 7
Was liked: 1
Rank: KGS 10 kyu
KGS: SinKing
OGS: J__P__
Thanks for the good advice. I've got a crazy number of writing deadlines for the end of the month. So my goals for Feb are just to finish "38 Basic Joseki" and get to 50 games (am at 42 for the month so far) played on a mix of servers.

I'll also put in some thought about what my SMART goals are gonna be for next month and do some refamiliarising myself with some of the tools on the L19 forums.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: TwentyTwentyOneDan
Post #8 Posted: Mon Mar 01, 2021 12:58 pm 
Dies in gote

Posts: 31
Liked others: 7
Was liked: 1
Rank: KGS 10 kyu
KGS: SinKing
OGS: J__P__
In the interest of trying a bunch of things out and keeping it varied I’m setting myself a 10 week plan.

Reading a book a week is very possible, but a week isn’t very long if I need to sit with given ideas and things so I’m gonna work through ten books concurrently. The focus is on reading practice but I’ve tried to ensure there’s a little bit of everything in there. The different kinds of books require slightly different goals.

I want a mix of reading text, reading out problems, and spaced repetition of key tesuji and l&d shapes.

GAMES

1. Play min of 10 slow games/week (min 20 min on the main clock). At least one each on KGS, OGS, WBaduk & Tygem.

2. Post at least 2 lost games to L19/week.

3. Comment on at least one DDK game/week

READING

1. 38 Basic Joseki - (38 chapters). 4 Joseki a week, flashcards for the main joseki, just read the variations.

2. Tesuji (Davies) - (63 sections) 7 sections/week. Flashcard the problems.

3. L&D (Davies) (36 chapters) - (63 sections) 4 chapters/week. Flashcard the problems.

4. Attack & Defense (10 chapters) - Read 1 chapter/week

5. Endgame (5 chapters) - Read 0.5 chapter/week

6. Relentless - (8 main games) Play through the 8 main games, reading only the main commentary, dipping into variations as needed. (this feels like a book I’m gonna come back to a bunch of times). I’ll possibly also speed through the other games collected in here as kifu reading practice.

7. Get Strong at Tesuji (534 problems) - 54 problems/week. Mostly treated as reading practice.

8. GGP4B3 (77pp) - 8 pages/week. Mostly treated as reading practice.

9. Shape Up! (20 chapters) - Read 2 chapters a week.

10. Openings (501 problems) - do 50 problems a week. Fairly quick, just trying to cement basis opening stuff.

KGS RANK AT THE START OF WEEK 1 OF 10: mid-9 kyu

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: TwentyTwentyOneDan
Post #9 Posted: Tue Mar 02, 2021 2:56 am 
Dies in gote

Posts: 49
Liked others: 63
Was liked: 4
Rank: EGF 1 dan
This is a very detailed plan, and much more ambitions than I have ever done.
Do not stress if you do less, and watch out for burnout. Learning go is not a sprint.

My suggestion is to add quick games and 9x9 games (x serious games on a kind of serious account, x or more fast games and 2x or more quick 9x9 games on some fun account). And of course, reviewing. In case you can get to play stronger players for some games, that would also help.
You can also tame down reading a bit to incorporate these additions (better to get more reading practice in 9x9 games).

Good luck and have fun :)


This post by marvin was liked by: WriterJon
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: TwentyTwentyOneDan
Post #10 Posted: Tue Mar 02, 2021 9:14 am 
Gosei

Posts: 1520
Liked others: 830
Was liked: 505
Rank: AGA 3k KGS 1k Fox 2d
GD Posts: 61
KGS: dfan
marvin wrote:
This is a very detailed plan, and much more ambitions than I have ever done.
Do not stress if you do less, and watch out for burnout. Learning go is not a sprint.

That is my reaction as well. I think that every beginner I have seen write out a plan for progress with that kind of enthusiasm has burnt out. You can find lots of examples on these very forums.

Enthusiasm is great, but it is best manifested in the form of playing lots of games and not in making detailed study plans.

That said, I will be very happy if it turns out to work for you! And you do have the advantage that you've already played for a while so you know what the game is like.


This post by dfan was liked by: WriterJon
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: TwentyTwentyOneDan
Post #11 Posted: Tue Mar 02, 2021 2:04 pm 
Dies in gote

Posts: 31
Liked others: 7
Was liked: 1
Rank: KGS 10 kyu
KGS: SinKing
OGS: J__P__
marvin wrote:
Do not stress if you do less, and watch out for burnout. Learning go is not a sprint.


I am very game, should I get less stuff done in week one, to switch it to a twenty week or ten month plan as needed.

I find I run in short intense bursts of interest. So I am trying to take advantage of my current burst as much as possible. In ten weeks time I might find myself playing 2-3 games a week and be really obsessed with learning Homeric Greek or macrame :D

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: TwentyTwentyOneDan
Post #12 Posted: Tue Mar 02, 2021 2:38 pm 
Oza

Posts: 2356
Location: Ireland
Liked others: 662
Was liked: 441
Universal go server handle: Boidhre
I recommend, if possible, to form a long term habit of doing *some* study rather than gorging heavily for a few weeks and then dropping it again. Purely for retention and the reality that similar to weight training you want to maintain reasonable effort in order to see results rather than a feast or famine approach. You can also make study more interesting this way by changing book/topic/whatever regularly to keep things fresh.


This post by Boidhre was liked by: WriterJon
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: TwentyTwentyOneDan
Post #13 Posted: Wed Mar 03, 2021 5:45 am 
Gosei
User avatar

Posts: 1919
Location: Ghent, Belgium
Liked others: 292
Was liked: 872
Rank: KGS 2d OGS 1d Fox 4d
KGS: Artevelde
OGS: Knotwilg
Online playing schedule: UTC 18:00 - 22:00
Also, be careful with the "extravert paradox" where publishing your goals already feels like a partial accomplishment.


This post by Knotwilg was liked by: Boidhre
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: TwentyTwentyOneDan
Post #14 Posted: Wed Mar 03, 2021 1:11 pm 
Honinbo

Posts: 10905
Liked others: 3651
Was liked: 3365
Knotwilg wrote:
Also, be careful with the "extravert paradox" where publishing your goals already feels like a partial accomplishment.


No comprendo, señor. I have never heard of the extravert paradox, and you seem to suggest that there is some problem with with publishing one's goals. What's the problem?

Thanks. :)

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: TwentyTwentyOneDan
Post #15 Posted: Wed Mar 03, 2021 1:35 pm 
Oza

Posts: 2356
Location: Ireland
Liked others: 662
Was liked: 441
Universal go server handle: Boidhre
Bill Spight wrote:
Knotwilg wrote:
Also, be careful with the "extravert paradox" where publishing your goals already feels like a partial accomplishment.


No comprendo, señor. I have never heard of the extravert paradox, and you seem to suggest that there is some problem with with publishing one's goals. What's the problem?

Thanks. :)


I've come across this and been told this in the context of psychiatric and psychological treatment I've received over the years. The idea is that publicly announcing goals appears to make it less likely that people achieve them. So the recommendations we get on using goals to aid in recovery and maintenance is to not announce them or talk about about the end goal but to talk about what we have been doing instead.

The original paper that started this is here: https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio ... Intentions

There's been a lot of work done on this since, I haven't read/seen much of it though.


This post by Boidhre was liked by: Bill Spight
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: TwentyTwentyOneDan
Post #16 Posted: Wed Mar 03, 2021 2:05 pm 
Lives in sente
User avatar

Posts: 1310
Liked others: 114
Was liked: 412
I only skimmed through the paper, but I didn't see anything suggesting that publicly announcing goals is counterproductive. In fact the main idea of the paper seems that to reach a goal, the best is to make precise plans (what I will do, how and when).

Attachment:
paper.JPG
paper.JPG [ 229.14 KiB | Viewed 5142 times ]


This post by jlt was liked by: Bill Spight
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: TwentyTwentyOneDan
Post #17 Posted: Wed Mar 03, 2021 3:15 pm 
Oza

Posts: 2356
Location: Ireland
Liked others: 662
Was liked: 441
Universal go server handle: Boidhre
Not a psychologist (and not going to read papers behind academic paywalls), so I'm finding it hard to get any publicly accessible stuff: this non-academic article jives with what psychologists were saying to me: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog ... ell-anyone (It's not an academic source though)

Short version from my understanding and what I've been told by professionals: In studies they seem to find that people do better at tasks/goals when they don't or can't announce their intentions and can only publicly show anything by doing task/goal related activity. What is suggested (and seen in experiments) is that if you grab a bunch of go players who intend to read Tesuji by Davies, the ones who tell people they are going to do that would less likely to read it than the ones who didn't tell anyone about it. The theory I heard is that if I say "I'm going to read Tesuji" and I get responses from people about that, this seems to partially fulfill the want/need to read the book. So the advice is talk about you have done and are currently doing rather than to talk about future tasks or goals yet to be completed. So have 1 dan as a goal but talk about what you're currently doing in games, life and death training etc not the desired end goal. Get praise/reinforcement for what you're doing not for something you haven't done yet.

Someone with some training in applied psychology/psychology may be be able to correct me here, expand on it or clarify, I can only give you it from a patient perspective.


This post by Boidhre was liked by: Bill Spight
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: TwentyTwentyOneDan
Post #18 Posted: Wed Mar 03, 2021 4:41 pm 
Honinbo

Posts: 10905
Liked others: 3651
Was liked: 3365
Boidhre wrote:
Not a psychologist (and not going to read papers behind academic paywalls), so I'm finding it hard to get any publicly accessible stuff: this non-academic article jives with what psychologists were saying to me: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog ... ell-anyone (It's not an academic source though)

Short version from my understanding and what I've been told by professionals: In studies they seem to find that people do better at tasks/goals when they don't or can't announce their intentions and can only publicly show anything by doing task/goal related activity. What is suggested (and seen in experiments) is that if you grab a bunch of go players who intend to read Tesuji by Davies, the ones who tell people they are going to do that would less likely to read it than the ones who didn't tell anyone about it. The theory I heard is that if I say "I'm going to read Tesuji" and I get responses from people about that, this seems to partially fulfill the want/need to read the book. So the advice is talk about you have done and are currently doing rather than to talk about future tasks or goals yet to be completed. So have 1 dan as a goal but talk about what you're currently doing in games, life and death training etc not the desired end goal. Get praise/reinforcement for what you're doing not for something you haven't done yet.


This is rather different from the Psychology Today article. It is about identity goals, which depend socially upon how people regard you. The point is that if you tell someone you know that you intend to become a go player, for example, that person starts to regard you as a go player, and you have less to do to become a go player as an identity (i.e., in other people's eyes), so you do less towards becoming a go player. That does not work if you tell another go player that you intend to become a dan player. The other player will not think of you as a dan player. And if, when you announce that goal, you are a DDK, the most polite response is likely to be, "That's nice. Good luck."

But announcing an action goal is different. I don't know about the research, but IMX if you tell someone who is supportive, they are likely to help you or encourage you to meet that goal. :)

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.


This post by Bill Spight was liked by: Boidhre
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: TwentyTwentyOneDan
Post #19 Posted: Wed Mar 03, 2021 5:27 pm 
Oza

Posts: 2356
Location: Ireland
Liked others: 662
Was liked: 441
Universal go server handle: Boidhre
Bill Spight wrote:
This is rather different from the Psychology Today article. It is about identity goals, which depend socially upon how people regard you. The point is that if you tell someone you know that you intend to become a go player, for example, that person starts to regard you as a go player, and you have less to do to become a go player as an identity (i.e., in other people's eyes), so you do less towards becoming a go player. That does not work if you tell another go player that you intend to become a dan player. The other player will not think of you as a dan player. And if, when you announce that goal, you are a DDK, the most polite response is likely to be, "That's nice. Good luck."

But announcing an action goal is different. I don't know about the research, but IMX if you tell someone who is supportive, they are likely to help you or encourage you to meet that goal. :)


I can't find a public copy of the paper by that researcher that I remember from years back but found a summation of part of it from a non-academic source:

Quote:
In one study, law students were asked to fill out a questionnaire that measured their commitment to making the most of their educational opportunities. Those whose answers indicated a high level of commitment to becoming lawyers were then split into two groups. For the first group, an experimenter looked at each participant’s questionnaire and then asked them to confirm that the answer they circled was the one they had intended. The second group, however, dropped their questionnaires into a box and understood their responses were anonymous.

After that, both groups were given 45 minutes to work on legal cases. The first group, whose answers had been acknowledged, spent less time working on the cases than the second group, whose answers were anonymous.

Researchers concluded that when someone notices your identity goal, that social recognition is a reward that may cause you to reduce your efforts. So in this case, the students who stated they were committed to becoming lawyers had already achieved that identity in their mind thanks to the experimenter’s acknowledgment of their answers.


Blog source: https://blog.trello.com/science-backed- ... your-goals (The rest is less interesting).

I think you can argue by analogy that seeking to become a strong go player is a similar form of goal as seeking to become a particular profession and someone could get social recognition of their desire to be a strong go player by talking about it and it being detrimental to their motivation. I *think* the split is more based here on social recognition/feedback than task type necessarily. Whether being seen to be working hard is a significant element to the person or not. I don't know, I'm mostly having to work backwards from getting the practical explanations from psychologists rather than the theory/experiment side. I was told by a few different ones that talking about my intentions to do X may have a negative effect on my motivation to do X if I can get praise or recognition for merely saying I'll do it rather than showing I'm doing it or that I have done it. The brain seems to react similarly to praise for any of these apparently.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: TwentyTwentyOneDan
Post #20 Posted: Wed Mar 03, 2021 11:26 pm 
Lives in sente
User avatar

Posts: 1310
Liked others: 114
Was liked: 412
The analogue of "I want to become a dan player" is not "I want to become a lawyer" but "both of us are law students, and I want to be among the top 10%".

Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 40 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group