KataGo self-play games + video reviews

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Maharani
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Re: My hand-crafted KataGo (+ AlphaGo Teach) self-play games

Post by Maharani »

White wins game 27 (Chinese rules, 7.5 komi) by at least 2.5 points: https://online-go.com/review/603209
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc AlphaGo Teach's opening (black 50 %)
$$ +---------------------------------------+
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
.sgf:

Attachments
KG_+_AGT_game_27.sgf
(1.81 KiB) Downloaded 1123 times
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Maharani
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Re: My hand-crafted KataGo (+ AlphaGo Teach) self-play games

Post by Maharani »

In my series of "white mistakes on move 2 to get winrates closer to 50 %", I've most recently played game 42 of my KataGo (7 komi, NZ rules) series. This is, as far as I recall, the first game in this series in which KataGo plays a 3-3 invasion of a lone 4-4 stone. As if on purpose, not long after the invasion joseki is finished, KataGo sacrifices the entire invading group and the other player builds an 80-point territory around it. As with all ties in this series, black's winrate first drops considerably before it goes back up towards 50 %, but in this game, the initial drop is much steeper (to around 14 %) and I almost resigned the game for black after it wastes a few ko threats. The winrate slants back up once white decides to waste a few ko threats of its own. Did I mention the black stone which white captures in a ladder three times before black saves it in the end? Funny game. https://online-go.com/review/605796

Image
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Game 132 will continue at a instead of D5.
$$ +---------------------------------------+
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$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
.sgf:

Attachments
kg_7_komi_game_42.sgf
(2.35 KiB) Downloaded 1098 times
Last edited by Maharani on Mon Sep 30, 2024 9:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Maharani
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Re: My hand-crafted KataGo (+ AlphaGo Teach) self-play games

Post by Maharani »

Maharani wrote:Bonus game continued from a sequence suggested by ELF OpenGo v2: https://online-go.com/review/433241
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc ELF OpenGo v2's opening (white 57 %)
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$$ | . . X . . . . X . . . . . O X O O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . O . X X X . X O . |
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$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
.sgf:



Example screenshot from ZBaduk (LeeLa is in red, but I only ever played KataGo's moves): https://i.ibb.co/Xtmyt2z/Screen-Shot-20 ... -12-AM.png
Anton Christenson, EGF 3d did a 65-minute YouTube review of this game! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RQ1piEevIp8

I’ve added all of his (commented) variations, plus more KataGo variations, to the OGS review as well.
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Maharani
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Re: My hand-crafted KataGo (+ AlphaGo Teach) self-play games

Post by Maharani »

Game 43 (7 komi, NZ rules) was the latest in my series of high-playout KataGo self-play games with a white mistake on move 2 to get winrates closer to 50 %. This one featured complicated fighting everywhere. White sacrifices 14 stones inside black's right side territory with no clear (to me) benefit or loss. It ended up as a tie. https://online-go.com/review/613241
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Game 141 will continue at a instead of O16.
$$ +---------------------------------------+
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$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X O X . |
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$$ | . . X . O O . . . . . . . . X X O X . |
$$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . O . O O O . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
.sgf:

Attachments
kg_7_komi_game_43.sgf
(2.3 KiB) Downloaded 995 times
Last edited by Maharani on Mon Sep 30, 2024 9:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Maharani
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Re: My hand-crafted KataGo (+ AlphaGo Teach) self-play games

Post by Maharani »

Game 44 (7 komi, NZ rules) was the first game in this series using a new KataGo net! As a reward, we get our first game with a black 3-4 opening. Early fighting breaks out in the lower-right corner and black builds a center moyo as a result. Another tie. https://online-go.com/review/619886
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Game 44 and at least seven other games continue at D4. At least four games will continue at a instead, and at least seven games at b.
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$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
.sgf:

Attachments
kg_7_komi_game_44.sgf
(2.49 KiB) Downloaded 980 times
Last edited by Maharani on Wed Sep 01, 2021 7:13 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Maharani
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Re: My hand-crafted KataGo (+ AlphaGo Teach) self-play games

Post by Maharani »

Game 45 (7 komi, NZ rules) is our first game with an early (move 3) 3-3 invasion, soon followed by a second one that develops similarly. A very complicated game - and another tie. Our current tally is 10 black wins, 15 ties and 20 white wins. https://online-go.com/review/625577
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc All previous games with these first 2 moves continued at a or b instead of C3.
$$ +---------------------------------------+
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$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
.sgf:

Attachments
kg_7_komi_game_45.sgf
(2.45 KiB) Downloaded 1755 times
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Maharani
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Re: My hand-crafted KataGo (+ AlphaGo Teach) self-play games

Post by Maharani »

No interest in these games whatsoever... Not on the OGS forums, either, nor on Reddit. Do y'all think there's another place where people might be interested?
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Re: My hand-crafted KataGo (+ AlphaGo Teach) self-play games

Post by lightvector »

I guess it's a lot to keep up with, particularly when the level of play is so high as to be beyond the casual viewer. :)

The occasional videos are still cool, particularly when there's human-digestible insights about specific moves and such.

If I had more time personally, I'd dive into a lot more of other fun stuff myself too:

* How has the frequency of different joseki preferences and opening raw policy changed across time over the course of a run?
* Pick a bunch of example positions in the middle of joseki or joseki-like sequences and a bunch of configurations for the surrounding corners. Are there positions where the choice depends greatly on the neighboring corners a lot, and are there human-understandable patterns to it?
* Are there easily-calculable metrics by which pure-AI-selfplay games are extremely strikingly different than human games?
* Between KataGo, LZ, ELF, MiniGo, etc, where are the largest differences between their preferences for various moves, that aren't simply revealable as a mistake?
* How often does KataGo's preference for a move clearly change as a function of the komi putting it ahead versus behind?
* If it's possible to obtain a large SGF joseki dictionary to just run analysis over - are there any josekis where a really surprising move is recommended that people haven't yet seen before?
etc.
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Maharani
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Re: My hand-crafted KataGo (+ AlphaGo Teach) self-play games

Post by Maharani »

In game 46 (7 komi, NZ rules), white builds a 40-point lower side territory while black gets three and a half corners. This game is our sixteenth tie. https://online-go.com/demo/view/632201
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Game 45 continued at a instead of Q3.
$$ +---------------------------------------+
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$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
.sgf:

Attachments
kg_7_komi_game_46.sgf
(2.18 KiB) Downloaded 1684 times
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ez4u
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Re: My hand-crafted KataGo (+ AlphaGo Teach) self-play games

Post by ez4u »

Maharani wrote:No interest in these games whatsoever... Not on the OGS forums, either, nor on Reddit. Do y'all think there's another place where people might be interested?
I am not sure why you expect people to be interested. These are katago self-play games. Why should people find that interesting? Anyone with a PC can generate their own or download millions from the katago site.

The depth of analysis is impressive but, what are the take aways? What are the lessons offered to the reader? How does the evaluation change as the playouts increase and what is the significance? Correct me if I am wrong but, I think you only included analysis in the OP. Since then, you only posted bare sgf's.
Dave Sigaty
"Short-lived are both the praiser and the praised, and rememberer and the remembered..."
- Marcus Aurelius; Meditations, VIII 21
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Maharani
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Re: My hand-crafted KataGo (+ AlphaGo Teach) self-play games

Post by Maharani »

ez4u wrote:Correct me if I am wrong but, I think you only included analysis in the OP. Since then, you only posted bare sgf's.
I've always posted short descriptions, and five games have been commented on by dan players who seemed to enjoy going through the games. Basically all I'm looking for are more dan players interested to skim through some games and comment on a few moves. :)
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Maharani
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Re: My hand-crafted KataGo (+ AlphaGo Teach) self-play games

Post by Maharani »

Game 47 (7 komi, NZ rules) sees black spending four moves to surround white's 4-4 stone by move 21. Of course, that stone ends up living, anyway. Black itself makes six living groups. After it realizes that white is gonna win by 2 points, black starts wasting ko threats and white wins by at least 12 points. https://online-go.com/demo/view/638422
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Fourteen previous games continued at a instead of D16.
$$ +---------------------------------------+
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$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
.sgf:

Attachments
kg_7_komi_game_47.sgf
(1.86 KiB) Downloaded 1644 times
Last edited by Maharani on Wed Sep 01, 2021 7:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Maharani
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Re: My hand-crafted KataGo (+ AlphaGo Teach) self-play games

Post by Maharani »

Here's an OGS demo board with all of the fuseki I've explored in my KataGo high-playout (NZ rules, 7 komi) games so far. Included are all branching moves up to game move 36 in which (the amount of playouts for a branching move) divided by (the percentage point difference in winrate between that branching move and KataGo's favourite move) was at least ~ 6 million (don't ask, I'm neurotic). https://online-go.com/demo/view/646694
Last edited by Maharani on Wed Sep 01, 2021 7:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Maharani
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Re: My hand-crafted KataGo (+ AlphaGo Teach) self-play games

Post by Maharani »

Game 48 (7 komi, NZ rules) was a complicated game with fighting all over the place. Black starts wasting ko threats near the end and loses by at least 12 points. https://online-go.com/review/646658
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Ten games continue at a instead of F4. Game 69 continues at b.
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$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
.sgf:

Attachments
kg_7_komi_game_48.sgf
(1.83 KiB) Downloaded 1613 times
Last edited by Maharani on Wed Dec 14, 2022 3:39 pm, edited 6 times in total.
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Maharani
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OGS: Maharani
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Re: My hand-crafted KataGo (+ AlphaGo Teach) self-play games

Post by Maharani »

In game 49 (7 komi, NZ rules) black develops a large right side in exchange for its lower-right corner. Even more trading occurs later on. You know the gist by now - another beautifully balanced tie. https://online-go.com/demo/view/651112
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Game 45 continued at a instead of R16.
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X B . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
.sgf:

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kg_7_komi_game_49.sgf
(43.26 KiB) Downloaded 1631 times
Last edited by Maharani on Sun Jul 11, 2021 8:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
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